Thomas Malkin
Elio Aficionado
Ars Technica, in a March 14, 2018 article, covers the utter inaction of the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing (ATVM) loan people since 2011. Elio Motors is specifically mentioned as a mind-blowing clusterf, having waiting eight years for a word, any word, of a loan, negative or positive. They are a victim, not a con.
As the program has been literally inactive in lending since 2011, Congress is going to shut the ATVM loan program down. I would normally scream about this, but the ATVM people weren't doing anything but cashing paychecks anyway. I was right: they are sitting on billions of dollars and won't unclench.
The article covers the other would-be manufacturers who have died because of ATVM loan inaction. It's not just Elio Motors eating bankruptcy because of their silence.
And, amazingly, not a word from the ATVM loan officials in the article. Who ARE these people, and why can't we get them to explain themselves?
The cause seems to be partisan politics, the ATVM people being accused of playing favorites (that would be silly. A loan officer does play favorites. That's the job, judging). So they are, obvious interpretation, refusing to burn themselves by making decisions. Just cashing paychecks.
Here's the kicker: the ATVM loan people are actively courting new manufacturers! They are shopping for new customers to make loans to. What they bloody hell happened in that outfit? It's a black box.
Bottom line: Paul Elio and all the others did what they were supposed to. And they waited. And they've been screwed out of loans which should have been made to them.
EDIT: response to source challenge.
I went to Google, and using my memory of, as I said, June 2016 rule changes at the ATVM loan whatever they are, found the posting I've been using for a year and a half. It's right there. How did I know about it? It was in the August 2016 Elio newsletter. I discussed it on this board at that time.
With the moderator's kind permission, I'd like to reissue this post as a new thread later. It needs better dissemination.
2016 August, newsletter:
https://www.eliomotors.com/elio-motors-locks-in-its-price/
As you say, the ATVM loan people did not "require" confirmed purchase orders. OK. But Elio Motors changed to confirmed orders to provide what the ATVM newly required: proof of "market acceptance" and "long term viability" that went beyond mere reservations. As quoted by Elio Motors below, the new ATVM loan requirements were that "market studies and non-binding reservations to purchase will not be sufficient". That they interpreted to mean confirmed purchase orders. What the hell else could it mean?
Here:
"As part of the final steps of the evaluation of our application for the ATVM loan, the U.S. DOE requires that Elio Motors demonstrate market acceptance for our project in order to provide a level of certainty about our long-term viability. Although we have received overwhelming market support from our fans, with more than 56,000 total reservations and over 85% of those “non-refundable,” according to the ATVM’s new guidelines published June 2016, that is not enough to demonstrate market acceptance:
“Where a start-up company that has not generated revenue seeks to commence or progress operations, … in all but the most extraordinary circumstances, market studies and non-binding customer reservations to purchase vehicles will not be sufficient…” [Emphasis added].
We believe we have created an “extraordinary” circumstance in the demand for our vehicle, between our crowdfunding and sales of shares through Regulation A+; however, we will take the necessary additional steps to strengthen our qualifications for this loan program. Because of these requirements, we must ask for binding commitments to purchase from our “non-refundable” reservation holders to further validate our market acceptance. And to obtain these binding commitments, we must lock in a price for the vehicle for “non-refundable” reservations."
And HERE are the new 2016 ATVM loan requirements that made Elio Motors require "binding commitments", that is to say: Confirmed. Purchase. Orders.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...ce_for_Potential_ATVM_Applicants_June2016.pdf
I've cut out the pertinent section and posted that capture of the PDF below:
So. The ATVM new requirement was that Elio Motors negotiate with the ATVM board a method of proving market acceptance and something more binding than mere reservations. Elio motors chose confirmed purchases. There was no guidance even on this point from the ATVM loan people: Elio Motors was *hoping* that would satisfy the board. OF course, there was no way of getting x number of "arrangements are best achieved by applicants with reference to the specific circumstances of individual projects" as that was undefined, innumerable, and indeed unattainable. Translation: although they could require confirmed purchase orders to try to appease the new "requirements", they had no way of knowing if that was required, adequate, or...what else can be said. A lot was typed out, but ATVM had imparted zero meaning in the "requirement". This was a calculated statement so that the ATVM people could always say they had requirements, but those requirements weren't met.
They were never gonna give Elio a loan. ANYone a loan. The ATVM loan process was a black box that when on which a button was pressed, said "No."
Also, to my thread post original point, they moved the goal posts in June 2016 when Elio Motors had met the original ATVM loan requirements. "Yeah, about that. We don't think 5400 reservations are enough. Let's say, you spitball an idea how to prove you have market acceptance and an ability to stay in business, and tell us about it, and we'll...never get back to you. See you never."
If Elio Motors had got the loan in 2011, they would have built the Elio. There was never any other viable option, no matter how Paul tried to put a brave face on it when the loan stalled out in 2016. No one lends to a company startup that won't make more profit than letting the funds sit in a investment portfolio. Investors aren't philanthropists for cars for the poor.
And so endeth my tale.
As the program has been literally inactive in lending since 2011, Congress is going to shut the ATVM loan program down. I would normally scream about this, but the ATVM people weren't doing anything but cashing paychecks anyway. I was right: they are sitting on billions of dollars and won't unclench.
The article covers the other would-be manufacturers who have died because of ATVM loan inaction. It's not just Elio Motors eating bankruptcy because of their silence.
And, amazingly, not a word from the ATVM loan officials in the article. Who ARE these people, and why can't we get them to explain themselves?
The cause seems to be partisan politics, the ATVM people being accused of playing favorites (that would be silly. A loan officer does play favorites. That's the job, judging). So they are, obvious interpretation, refusing to burn themselves by making decisions. Just cashing paychecks.
Here's the kicker: the ATVM loan people are actively courting new manufacturers! They are shopping for new customers to make loans to. What they bloody hell happened in that outfit? It's a black box.
Bottom line: Paul Elio and all the others did what they were supposed to. And they waited. And they've been screwed out of loans which should have been made to them.
EDIT: response to source challenge.
I went to Google, and using my memory of, as I said, June 2016 rule changes at the ATVM loan whatever they are, found the posting I've been using for a year and a half. It's right there. How did I know about it? It was in the August 2016 Elio newsletter. I discussed it on this board at that time.
With the moderator's kind permission, I'd like to reissue this post as a new thread later. It needs better dissemination.
2016 August, newsletter:
https://www.eliomotors.com/elio-motors-locks-in-its-price/
As you say, the ATVM loan people did not "require" confirmed purchase orders. OK. But Elio Motors changed to confirmed orders to provide what the ATVM newly required: proof of "market acceptance" and "long term viability" that went beyond mere reservations. As quoted by Elio Motors below, the new ATVM loan requirements were that "market studies and non-binding reservations to purchase will not be sufficient". That they interpreted to mean confirmed purchase orders. What the hell else could it mean?
Here:
"As part of the final steps of the evaluation of our application for the ATVM loan, the U.S. DOE requires that Elio Motors demonstrate market acceptance for our project in order to provide a level of certainty about our long-term viability. Although we have received overwhelming market support from our fans, with more than 56,000 total reservations and over 85% of those “non-refundable,” according to the ATVM’s new guidelines published June 2016, that is not enough to demonstrate market acceptance:
“Where a start-up company that has not generated revenue seeks to commence or progress operations, … in all but the most extraordinary circumstances, market studies and non-binding customer reservations to purchase vehicles will not be sufficient…” [Emphasis added].
We believe we have created an “extraordinary” circumstance in the demand for our vehicle, between our crowdfunding and sales of shares through Regulation A+; however, we will take the necessary additional steps to strengthen our qualifications for this loan program. Because of these requirements, we must ask for binding commitments to purchase from our “non-refundable” reservation holders to further validate our market acceptance. And to obtain these binding commitments, we must lock in a price for the vehicle for “non-refundable” reservations."
And HERE are the new 2016 ATVM loan requirements that made Elio Motors require "binding commitments", that is to say: Confirmed. Purchase. Orders.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...ce_for_Potential_ATVM_Applicants_June2016.pdf
I've cut out the pertinent section and posted that capture of the PDF below:
So. The ATVM new requirement was that Elio Motors negotiate with the ATVM board a method of proving market acceptance and something more binding than mere reservations. Elio motors chose confirmed purchases. There was no guidance even on this point from the ATVM loan people: Elio Motors was *hoping* that would satisfy the board. OF course, there was no way of getting x number of "arrangements are best achieved by applicants with reference to the specific circumstances of individual projects" as that was undefined, innumerable, and indeed unattainable. Translation: although they could require confirmed purchase orders to try to appease the new "requirements", they had no way of knowing if that was required, adequate, or...what else can be said. A lot was typed out, but ATVM had imparted zero meaning in the "requirement". This was a calculated statement so that the ATVM people could always say they had requirements, but those requirements weren't met.
They were never gonna give Elio a loan. ANYone a loan. The ATVM loan process was a black box that when on which a button was pressed, said "No."
Also, to my thread post original point, they moved the goal posts in June 2016 when Elio Motors had met the original ATVM loan requirements. "Yeah, about that. We don't think 5400 reservations are enough. Let's say, you spitball an idea how to prove you have market acceptance and an ability to stay in business, and tell us about it, and we'll...never get back to you. See you never."
If Elio Motors had got the loan in 2011, they would have built the Elio. There was never any other viable option, no matter how Paul tried to put a brave face on it when the loan stalled out in 2016. No one lends to a company startup that won't make more profit than letting the funds sit in a investment portfolio. Investors aren't philanthropists for cars for the poor.
And so endeth my tale.
Last edited:
