Borrow $240 Mil, Or Borrow Alot Less And Start Out Slow?

[eliothegreat]

We need to clarify what Elio Motors and Paul Elio have said about the engine. What EM and PE have consistently said, which some people appear to be misunderstanding, is that EM could not find any existing engines available that could meet their requirements. To understand what this means it helps to understand the requirements. In basic form EM's requirements for their engine needs are:

1. The engine should be made in the USA
2. In order to keep the overall vehicle cost as low as possible the engine needs to be available in sufficient volume to meet EM's production needs
3. The engine installed in the vehicle must reach a minimum fuel efficiency target of 75 MPG as set by the ATVM program
4. The total engine price needs to meet EM's cost requirements

On many occasions, including the recent NYC press conference and Pennsylvania lectures available on Youtube, Paul Elio has detailed this issue by explaining that most companies will not even speak to EM as they do not want to deal with a start-up vehicle manufacturer. He further explains that the few companies which would even speak to EM have balked at the volume requirements.

And even more tellingly, he stated that he had never contacted any of them. He never even tried. Even though he was able to put together a team of 34 major manufacturers, he couldn't be bothered to even talk to an engine supplier. He "knew" they wouldn't be interested.

1. An existing engine, even if manufactured overseas, would provide jobs for American workers assembling a real vehicle, as opposed to unemployed American workers not assembling an fantasy vehicle with a fantasy engine.
2. EM hasn't produced anything. Three engines would have been sufficient to meet their needs for the first 7 years. It is much more likely that any existing manufacturer would be as capable, or much more capable of ramping up engine production as EM.
3. It would have been extremely straightforward to purchase a couple of the existing engines and road-test them to see whether some minor tweaking and gearing changes would meet those goals. EM gave up on road testing after getting 66mpg with the P2.
4. EM doesn't have any cost "requirements". They have projected costs and projected profits. They can control costs by controlling content and shopping wisely, but in both the short term and long term, they just have to do the best they can. And they cannot afford a new engine starting up, any more than they could afford to build their own transmission, hvac, interior, dash (oops), suspension parts, brakes, etc. The only way this would have worked was by using off-the-shelf parts to the absolute maximum extent possible.

 

[John Painter]

And even more tellingly, he stated that he had never contacted any of them. He never even tried. Even though he was able to put together a team of 34 major manufacturers, he couldn't be bothered to even talk to an engine supplier. He "knew" they wouldn't be interested.

1. An existing engine, even if manufactured overseas, would provide jobs for American workers assembling a real vehicle, as opposed to unemployed American workers not assembling an fantasy vehicle with a fantasy engine.
2. EM hasn't produced anything. Three engines would have been sufficient to meet their needs for the first 7 years. It is much more likely that any existing manufacturer would be as capable, or much more capable of ramping up engine production as EM.
3. It would have been extremely straightforward to purchase a couple of the existing engines and road-test them to see whether some minor tweaking and gearing changes would meet those goals. EM gave up on road testing after getting 66mpg with the P2.
4. EM doesn't have any cost "requirements". They have projected costs and projected profits. They can control costs by controlling content and shopping wisely, but in both the short term and long term, they just have to do the best they can. And they cannot afford a new engine starting up, any more than they could afford to build their own transmission, hvac, interior, dash (oops), suspension parts, brakes, etc. The only way this would have worked was by using off-the-shelf parts to the absolute maximum extent possible.

So you're making a pitch for mediocracy from Elio Motors? All those four points you touch on are compromises on their 4 must haves. I think Elio Motors would lose potential customers and investors if they didn't stick to must haves. I'm also not sure what your point is about Elio Motors not having any cost requirements, that they have projected cost and profit, are you making an argument that Elio Motors shouldn't have a business plan with detailed financials? I'm seeking to understand.

 

[Jim H]

It is the wise fisherman who has many hooks in the water......

Tell that to the Game Warden......LOL

 

[Kuda]

Tell that to the Game Warden......LOL

Indeed, that's what the SEC is for............

 

[WilliamH]

Indeed, that's what the SEC is for............

Let's face facts.
Eliothegreat is a legend in his own mind.
If he was as good as he thinks he is he wouldn't have time to write his long missives.
He would be gainfully employed at a job that insured he would be busy most of the time.

 

[eddie66]

It is the wise fisherman who has many hooks in the water......

Also known as a master baiter

 

[goofyone]

So you're making a pitch for mediocracy from Elio Motors? All those four points you touch on are compromises on their 4 must haves. I think Elio Motors would lose potential customers and investors if they didn't stick to must haves. I'm also not sure what your point is about Elio Motors not having any cost requirements, that they have projected cost and profit, are you making an argument that Elio Motors shouldn't have a business plan with detailed financials? I'm seeking to understand.

On top of the 4 must haves which define this project and make it somewhat unique the reality of the situation is that the engine development and manufacturing costs are only a fraction of the total cost of this project. Anyone can armchair quarterback with ease and come up with good theories however these really do not mean much as we really do not even have all the needed insider information to make anything but somewhat reasonable sounding guesses.

 

[eliothegreat]

So you're making a pitch for mediocracy from Elio Motors? All those four points you touch on are compromises on their 4 must haves. I think Elio Motors would lose potential customers and investors if they didn't stick to must haves. I'm also not sure what your point is about Elio Motors not having any cost requirements, that they have projected cost and profit, are you making an argument that Elio Motors shouldn't have a business plan with detailed financials? I'm seeking to understand.

Not at all. I'm making a pitch for production.

 

[Rickb]

Let's face facts.
Eliothegreat is a legend in his own mind.
If he was as good as he thinks he is he wouldn't have time to write his long missives.
He would be gainfully employed at a job that insured he would be busy most of the time.

Why do you feel the need to attack the person rather than debating or ignoring the point whether right or wrong? I agree with alot of what you say, not all, and don't attack you personally. I was compelled to reply only as a reminder that we should all be considerate and respectful of others views.

 

[Folks]

Why do you feel the need to attack the person rather than debating or ignoring the point whether right or wrong? I agree with alot of what you say, not all, and don't attack you personally. I was compelled to reply only as a reminder that we should all be considerate and respectful of others views.

I've always meant to ask you, Rick. Why or what is reason for the New York Times logo as your avatar?