10/29/2014 - Tech Talk - Engine Series: Part 3

[wheaters]

I agree about separate cylinder sleeves/liners. We use them in our little Reliant engines (ours are wet liners in an aluminium block) and you can still buy them decades later so you can keep an engine going indefinitely. With flame sprayed coated cylinders, if a liner goes out of tolerance, I suspect you scrap the block and hope you can find another, which is headed towards built in obsolescence.

I've some experience of this issue; some years ago we bought a little Honda NSR125 motorbike for my son. It had issues which turned out to be a cylinder fault. They can't be rebored because the bore is coated. New cylinder, very expensive!

 

[Ty]

I agree about separate cylinder sleeves/liners. We use them in our little Reliant engines (ours are wet liners in an aluminium block) and you can still buy them decades later so you can keep an engine going indefinitely. With flame sprayed coated cylinders, if a liner goes out of tolerance, I suspect you scrap the block and hope you can find another, which is headed towards built in obsolescence.

I've some experience of this issue; some years ago we bought a little Honda NSR125 motorbike for my son. It had issues which turned out to be a cylinder fault. They can't be rebored because the bore is coated. New cylinder, very expensive!

I thought I read somewhere that cylinder bores could be re-sprayed if needed. It doesn't seem any more difficult than boring out a cylinder, sleeving it, and then re-honing it. Then again, you'd have to find someone with a sprayer...

 

[goofyone]

I thought I read somewhere that cylinder bores could be re-sprayed if needed. It doesn't seem any more difficult than boring out a cylinder, sleeving it, and then re-honing it. Then again, you'd have to find someone with a sprayer...

Repairing aircraft jet engines and was actually the original intent of the plasma spray technology and it has been used for decades in those applications and more recently it has been used widely by caterpillar to repair iron blocks on diesel engines. Most of us have likely even flown in jet aircraft with whose engine components have been repaired using this technology however we do not even realize it. Ford merely researched this technology further and worked with Flame Spray to make it inexpensive enough to be used for regular automotive applications.

http://articles.sae.org/7624/
http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt-r

The PTWA technology is well proven by Ford who have been using the PTWA process in many of its F-150 Ecoboost V6's for several years now and is rolling out the technology to its 3-cylinder 1.0L Ecoboost engines.

We just have to be patient and observe the Elio engine testing and development process as there is a lot more to come. IAV are the experts and they will do this by the book.

 

[tonyspumoni]

Caveat: I am not a gearhead but maybe a gearhead wannabe. Question: chief advantage of flame spraying according to the Wiki article about it is weight reduction. In an engine this light to begin with, just how much heavier would three iron sleeves actually be?

Maybe this whole flame-spray thing is some "cool" passing engineer fancy of Paul's? I mean, it does look cool. But they sure don't have one of these laying around the existing plant, since the vehicles produced surely didn't use this technology, so if they do decide to go the spray coated cylinder wall route, they'll have to set this up pretty fast to meet their timelines. Let's see. New technology. Restricted vendor (Flame Spray). Equipment not at plant. I am hoping they keep it simple.

 

[Bert]

I imagine it's a combination of weight, heat tranfser, cost and durability.
My two cents..

 

[outsydthebox]

Caveat: I am not a gearhead but maybe a gearhead wannabe. Question: chief advantage of flame spraying according to the Wiki article about it is weight reduction. In an engine this light to begin with, just how much heavier would three iron sleeves actually be?

Maybe this whole flame-spray thing is some "cool" passing engineer fancy of Paul's? I mean, it does look cool. But they sure don't have one of these laying around the existing plant, since the vehicles produced surely didn't use this technology, so if they do decide to go the spray coated cylinder wall route, they'll have to set this up pretty fast to meet their timelines. Let's see. New technology. Restricted vendor (Flame Spray). Equipment not at plant. I am hoping they keep it simple.

So...what makes Flame Spray a "restricted" vendor? Do you mean they are restricted from setting up production in the Shreveport factory? Why would they be, when several from the list of suppliers have said they plan to set up there?
Also, Flame Spray is not a new technology. It is proven. Testing has proven durability way past 200k miles.

 

[goofyone]

Caveat: I am not a gearhead but maybe a gearhead wannabe. Question: chief advantage of flame spraying according to the Wiki article about it is weight reduction. In an engine this light to begin with, just how much heavier would three iron sleeves actually be?

Maybe this whole flame-spray thing is some "cool" passing engineer fancy of Paul's? I mean, it does look cool. But they sure don't have one of these laying around the existing plant, since the vehicles produced surely didn't use this technology, so if they do decide to go the spray coated cylinder wall route, they'll have to set this up pretty fast to meet their timelines. Let's see. New technology. Restricted vendor (Flame Spray). Equipment not at plant. I am hoping they keep it simple.

I imagine it's a combination of weight, heat tranfser, cost and durability.
My two cents..

So...what makes Flame Spray a "restricted" vendor? Do you mean they are restricted from setting up production in the Shreveport factory? Why would they be, when several from the list of suppliers have said they plan to set up there?
Also, Flame Spray is not a new technology. It is proven. Testing has proven durability way past 200k miles.

As Bert posed the reasons stated for the use of PTWA (Flame Spray) over steel liners has been weight reduction, better heat transfer, lower cost, and equal or higher durability.

The PTWA process was developed by Flame Spray and Ford however the equipment is produced by various vendors including Comau who is EM's chosen equipment and services provider for the Shreveport plant.

 

[Jay3wheel]

As Bert posed the reasons stated for the use of PTWA (Flame Spray) over steel liners has been weight reduction, better heat transfer, lower cost, and equal or higher durability.

The PTWA process was developed by Flame Spray and Ford however the equipment is produced by various vendors including Comau who is EM's chosen equipment and services provider for the Shreveport plant.

Perhaps Flame Spray sets up and gets X $'s per engine and retains ownership of their equipment.

 

[goofyone]

Perhaps Flame Spray sets up and gets X $'s per engine and retains ownership of their equipment.

It is my understanding that Comau, and others, merely license the technology from Frame Spray. This will be EM's equipment produced, installed, and maintained by Comau using technology licensed from Flame Spray.

How the technology license works is not known by us at this time. It could be per engine block or per year or per machine or however else they choose to negotiate the use of their technology.

 

[Jay3wheel]

It is my understanding that Comau, and others, merely license the technology from Frame Spray. This will be EM's equipment produced, installed, and maintained by Comau using technology licensed from Flame Spray.

How the technology license works is not known by us at this time. It could be per engine block or per year or per machine or however else they choose to negotiate the use of their technology.

Just off subject, but weren't we expecting new out of Vegas on the 4th?