Function & Cost Of Amt Vs Manual: Interesting...

[lnwlf40]

I have a 2004 Honda Civic EX 2-door that has a CVT. Don't know what kind of HP I am missing out on but the 1.7 SOHC 4 cyl has allot of get up and go. I don't hear an over-reving engine but do feel a small clunk when it down shifts into 1st around 20 mph. Other than that I feel very comfortable with it, and I would consider that over an AMT in my Elio. As of now I'm planning on a manual trans.

 

[Coss]

I think I remember hearing that they were going to do an MMT in P5; I could see one of those transmissions in mine.
Love the idea of sequential shifting, and shifting without a clutch pedal would fit my physical limitations perfectly.

For those that don't remember the discussion we had on the MMT here's how it works LINK

 

[Critter]

The 1962 Ford Galaxy 500 with automatic, could be roll started, get up a little speed for it to kick the engine over. When I was towing it to give the car away, the engine kicked in the front bumper came off.
One time a manual transmission was handy to have, Early 1980's, The coldest day in Knoxville, it was -24 degrees as I was leaving work around 5 am. The battery would not crank the Datsun pickup. Pushed it in the parking garage and popped the clutch as I was going down the ramp.

 

[wizard of ahs]

Guys,
One of my points is that the AMT is both.
If you choose to use it as a pure "manual", you can bang those 5 gears up and down as hard as you want.
All it's missing is the clutch pedal. Do you really need the pedal?

Exactly !! With my arthritis and bad knees, I love having the "manual" shifting (paddles) without the pedal on my smart !!

Don't need no stinkin' pedal

If you're fond of double shifts, e.g., 1-3 or 2-4, will the AMT accommodate you?

Yep, 2 taps and you're there

AMT -vs- Manual

Both are the same transmissions. We got that.
So the difference is above and beyond the actual transmission is:

AMT:
Clutch Servo
Shifting Servos
Computer (electronics)
Power pack
Additional Sensors
Electrical shifter (basically a switch)

Manual:
Extra Pedal and Cable
Mechanical Shifter and push/pull cables

From a cost stand point the manual components will be $100, maybe less compared to $500-600 for the electronic components.
It's not really that close.

From an efficiency standpoint, the winner goes to the AMT. Remember, a computer is involved and making the decisions. the gas pedal tells the computer what you want and the electronic box decides when to shift compensating for temperature, pressure, engine rpm, present speed, and gravimetric distortions. It will shift based on sensors and predetermined algorithms. It will shift far more efficiency and consistently than even the BEST drivers.

But with the AMT, you are giving up control. Yes, you can shift + or - with the "stick" switch. But what's the point of doing that? You're not going to choose the proper gear better than a computer. Even if you could, you are still shackled by an automatic clutch that you ultimately have no control over. It is not a $30,000 double clutch from a super car. It's a $50 clutch that's been around for 100 years connected to a servo that is designed and programmed for conservative and efficient driving. It will likely not be fast or sporty.

So what are the advantages?

AMT:
Ease of use.
More fuel efficient
Likely longer lasting clutch

Manual:
Simple Design
Cheaper
(possibly more sporty)

Edit:

In addition, the fuel efficiency increase with the AMT will ONLY be observed in city driving and even then, only 1-3 MPG.
At highway speeds, there is no shifting, thus, no efficiency gained with an automatic shifter.

Finally, Elio Motors needs to be VERY careful marketing the AMT.
You have seen multiple threads of potential customers and even gear heads that are not entirely sure what an AMT is.
The danger is someone buying an AMT think it is a conventional Torque Converter Automatic Transmission and disappointed with the lack of smoothness or overall feel which would lead to complaints affecting the reputation of the Elio.

Actually, there are MANY times where a person will shift MUCH better than the programmed AMT !! The person can "anticipate" what's coming while the programming just reacts

 

[Reid3400]

The CVT manual shift feature is simply a way to fool people into thinking they are doing something meaningful. All it does is pause the clutch in a pre-set fixed ratio position and then let it step to the next pre-set ratio. Leave it alone, in automatic, it is smarter that we are. I have fine turned these transmissions for racing since 1974. Once you match the range of ratios to the power curve of the engine, your fiddling is done. This is done with springs and centrifugal weights. One trick we kept from a lot of competitors was to keep the belt warm, as hot as possible. We kept our belts in a box fed by the truck heater going full blast. We staged the machine on the starting line and just before the start of the race, pulled a belt out from under our jackets and swapped it. This gave us a "hole shot" which was very difficult for the rest of the field to overcome.

 

[Ekh]

Actually, there are MANY times where a person will shift MUCH better than the programmed AMT !! The person can "anticipate" what's coming while the programming just reacts

The AMT is optimized for efficiency. My choices might be optimized for performance, particularly on snaky roads. I just don't trust my AMT (and I think that's what's in my subaru forester) to do as well -- though I did use the "manual" function for about 200 miles of no-brake mountain driving (brakes were suddenly making bad metal on metal noises, and I wanted to wait til I got home to service them -- so brake pedal only for absolute stop, and then sparingly). But mainly I was using the AMT for engine brake, not for performance driving. Any body have real experience with these things and care to comment?

 

[WilliamH]

In the simplest terms possible..........
When I originally started looking at the Elio I really liked what I saw.
When I saw that I could get a "real" manual transmission, clutch pedal and all, that closed the deal.
For those who, for whatever reason, want or need an automatic transmission I'm glad you can get one.
I'm just sick of paying thousands of dollars extra for something I don't want just because it makes it easier for the manufacturer.

 

[Reid3400]

In the simplest terms possible..........
When I originally started looking at the Elio I really liked what I saw.
When I saw that I could get a "real" manual transmission, clutch pedal and all, that closed the deal.
For those who, for whatever reason, want or need an automatic transmission I'm glad you can get one.
I'm just sick of paying thousands of dollars extra for something I don't want just because it makes it easier for the manufacturer.

Last Thursday, I spent 3 hours on an interstate to go 25 miles. Yesterday only 90 minutes for the same 25 miles. Miata manual tranny. Bad night with leg cramps. IIRC this is the 4th time in 2 years I have gotten caught in this situation. Until I can go in the HOV lane with my Elio, I will take an automatic for this trip from now on.

 

[Lone Browncoat]

WilliamH.....
.. well as we get older (baby boomers) we'll all get leg cramps!!!
Hence, my boosting of CVT in previous post.

 

[WilliamH]

Last Thursday, I spent 3 hours on an interstate to go 25 miles. Yesterday only 90 minutes for the same 25 miles. Miata manual tranny. Bad night with leg cramps. IIRC this is the 4th time in 2 years I have gotten caught in this situation. Until I can go in the HOV lane with my Elio, I will take an automatic for this trip from now on.

WilliamH.....
.. well as we get older (baby boomers) we'll all get leg cramps!!!
Hence, my boosting of CVT in previous post.

I feel your pain guys. When I was a young man, back in the early 60s, I used to commute from northern New Jersey to White Plains, New York every day across the Tappan Zee Bridge. I'm retired now and live on a small ranch in central Texas. If I see four cars or trucks in the 11 miles from my ranch to the main gate I consider it a heavy traffic day. And just 20 miles into town at between 75 and 85 MPH from the gate.
Incidentally, my got to haves are tinted windows and cruise control.