How To Build A 100 Mpg Car

[NSTG8R]

A naturally aspirated 6L diesel is pumping (ignoring volumetric efficiency losses, for simple math purposes) 4500 l/min of air, turbo motors more yet.

Does anyone really believe that changing the makeup of 4 ONE HUNDREDTHS OF ONE PERCENT (.0004) of that volume will make a real, measureable, difference?

Snake oil, y'all.

I'd tend to agree with you in that a minuscule amount of combustible gas shouldn't have any effect at all, but well before I even thought of trying something like a HHO generator, or even owned a diesel truck, an "old timer" I worked with told me a story about driving a diesel van up through Illinois, and having an uncontrolled acceleration event. He couldn't figure out what was making his van start speeding up even though he was applying the brake. o_O Turns out there was a fairly large propane leak out of a storage facility along the highway, and it was enough to cause his diesel to accelerate without his input. Can't say what the ppm was, but he said it wasn't enough for him to smell anything. I'm still on the fence, but as cheap and simple as the HHO generator is to make, I'm going to go ahead and make one just to 'experiment' with...if nothing else, I'll have a cool little 12VDC gas torch.

 

[NSTG8R]

A naturally aspirated 6L diesel is pumping (ignoring volumetric efficiency losses, for simple math purposes) 4500 l/min of air, turbo motors more yet.

Does anyone really believe that changing the makeup of 4 ONE HUNDREDTHS OF ONE PERCENT (.0004) of that volume will make a real, measureable, difference?

Snake oil, y'all.

Oh, according to the HHO forums, the 1.8LPM is for gasoline engines. A correctly built dry cell generator can 'allegedly' put out 6LPM. Doesn't really change the math much, but...

 

[RKing]

Interesting, may have to see if a certain Vortec 350 might like a shoot full and reward me with some improvement(17.5 now). It must be a tea toadler as it sure dosent't like whisky in it's gas

 

[HHH]

Maybe I should retitle this thread, "Diesel Dreams."

I thought it was very interesting to find how much more it would cost, and the necessary current technology, to increase the passenger capacity of the Elio to become a family car, and boost the mileage as well. This may stand as a testament to why Elio won't be able to shift into this direction in the future, even though there will be plenty of voices asking him to create a family car.

 

[Dusty921]

Okay, this is HIGHLY controversial, but in the diesel forums (specifically big trucks), adding HHO via a hydrogen generator (electrically energized metal plates breaking down water into Brown's gas [hydrogen and oxygen]) and adding to the intake air "allegedly" can give drastic mpg improvements. I've been reading up on it off and on for a year or so since it's so cheap ($50) to make your own with stuff from the hardware store, that I might whip one up to test on my F250 ('96 7.3L Powerstroke). Diesel's have the advantage that they don't have MAFs, MAPs or O2 sensors to adjust the fuel flow via the ECU. There's some mods that need to be done to a gasoline engine to keep the computer from adding more fuel due to the increased oxygen in the exhaust (they say), but there's plenty of open source sites that for the EFIE (electronic fuel injection enhancer) to trick the computer into thinking everything's cool. They claim anywhere from 30% to over 100% increase in mpg.

Waiting for Snick to chime in and tell me I've got a "mental disorder" (RE: Orange Balls) thinking this could be real.

Had an old buddy of mine, who can build damn near anything and make it look like Porsche did it, built one of those HHO thing-a-ma-whatits. He installed it on a cool old 70's Chevrolet pick up with a stout little 383 stroker, (he built), and got some p-r-e-t-t-y impressive fuel economy numbers. The truck was built on a trick racecar style chassis and suspension, (he also built), and really was impressive. Light and nimble with excellent weight distribution it handled like an asphalt late model, accelerated like a super stock dragster and even in primer looked really neat, yet maintained remarkable gas mileage. Somewhere along the way he started getting harassed by some EPA, DNR, ATF types because of supposed "controlled" materials he obtained for the project from a renegade web site. Wish I knew more about the specifics but the upshot of all of this was that he ended up hiding the HHO contraption, peddling the truck, and dropping off "The Grid". Never could figure out exactly where the "Gestapo" tactics came from but at one point he was sleeping with a "little friend" under his pillow. Dirty shame too, because his HHO Generator was a real thing of beauty not your typical shade tree, Rube Goldberg apparatus, but then he also had access to C&C, hydro and laser cutters and the fanciest welding equipment known to man. The stinkers welding always looked like a precisely laid out row of dimes, while mine always looks fine after multiple layers and of hours of grinding.

This is one of the reasons I jumped into the Elio with both feet, the "off the shelf" approach Paul Elio is working with keeps this project viable to everybody with little or no reason for any legal, or otherwise, interference. Unlike the so called Green Friendly and feeble attempts of the past where proprietary parts and flawed technology doomed them from the get go, Elio is a logical, straight forward and simple design that can be built quickly, accurately and cheaply with all of the safety, performance, comfort and Bling that existing technology can muster. While not professing to be a total expert at anything, I have seen up close and personal many of examples of automotive genius and luckily been a party to the building and testing of said.
Folks, we are on the cusp of a revolution, wallow in the mere joy of it.

 

[Jeff Porter]

I built a hydrogen generator and put it on my '85 diesel rabbit, hooked it up to a relay off the headlight/parklight switch so as not to generate explosive gas without the engine running. I built it for less than $30.00 and went from 35 mpg to 45 mpg with just one unit. I was going to install a second unit when Chrysler came out with the Lifetime powertrain warranty and I went down and bought my PT loser and unloaded the rabbit.

LOL, "PT loser". That strikes my funny bone. I needed that today.

 

[Jeff Porter]

For what it's worth, I investigated the HHO thing about 6 yrs ago. Got excited about it, talked to a mechanic neighbor of mine, he looked into it. He said it wasn't worth the risk, time and effort. It's possible he didn't know what he was saying, but I gave up on it at that point. Further research on my behalf sort of backed up abandoning the idea.

Not saying it couldn't shouldn't be done. :-)

 

[Lil4X]

I'd tend to agree with you in that a minuscule amount of combustible gas shouldn't have any effect at all, but well before I even thought of trying something like a HHO generator, or even owned a diesel truck, an "old timer" I worked with told me a story about driving a diesel van up through Illinois, and having an uncontrolled acceleration event. He couldn't figure out what was making his van start speeding up even though he was applying the brake. o_O Turns out there was a fairly large propane leak out of a storage facility along the highway, and it was enough to cause his diesel to accelerate without his input. Can't say what the ppm was, but he said it wasn't enough for him to smell anything. I'm still on the fence, but as cheap and simple as the HHO generator is to make, I'm going to go ahead and make one just to 'experiment' with...if nothing else, I'll have a cool little 12VDC gas torch.

I've heard about similar "uncontrolled acceleration events" where the presence of a combustible gas enters an engine's combustion chamber providing additional "fuel" to the engine. It can happen - it's not just an old industrial legend . . . your nose is not a good judge of the presence of these gases.

Back in the '70's I worked with a pan-industrial task team seeking to find exposure limits and safe working concentrations of H₂S. Not only was this gas almost instantly poisonous, its concentrations were remarkably low to produce deadly effects almost immediately . . . down around 800 ppm. But exposure over a longer period can be lethal at far lower concentrations. There have been multiple industrial deaths due to a man going down in an H₂S environment, and a succession of would-be "rescuers" dying in an attempt to pull the man into fresh air and being poisoned themselves.

What makes H₂S supremely deadly is that it overwhelms your sense of smell at very low concentrations. The gas gets into your bloodstream and blocks the ability of cells to take up oxygen and you die rather quickly of asphyxiation. You and I can smell the rotten-egg odor of H₂S at extremely low concentrations, but our sense of smell quickly goes "blind" to the odor when the concentration is prolonged or only slightly elevated - at less than 150 ppm for five minutes. It's been said - with a great deal of truth - that if you can smell rotten eggs, you're probably safe but you should be wary . . . when you can't smell it any more, RUN!

Propane and other gases affect your olfactory sense the same way - at elevated concentrations you go "nose blind" rather quickly even before explosive concentrations are reached . . . and think you are safe. Then . . . . well, BOOM! An engine taking in "fuel" in the ambient air will "run away" - a very dangerous proposition for anyone in the vicinity. Gas, diesel, and even gas turbine engines can experience this when significant concentrations of combustible gas is present in air. Most of the time this level of concentration is far above being compatible with human life, but in enclosed spaces, as the cause of a runaway, it represents a set of hazards all its own.

 

[Dusty921]

I've heard about similar "uncontrolled acceleration events" where the presence of a combustible gas enters an engine's combustion chamber providing additional "fuel" to the engine. It can happen - it's not just an old industrial legend . . . your nose is not a good judge of the presence of these gases.

Back in the '70's I worked with a pan-industrial task team seeking to find exposure limits and safe working concentrations of H₂S. Not only was this gas almost instantly poisonous, its concentrations were remarkably low to produce deadly effects almost immediately . . . down around 800 ppm. But exposure over a longer period can be lethal at far lower concentrations. There have been multiple industrial deaths due to a man going down in an H₂S environment, and a succession of would-be "rescuers" dying in an attempt to pull the man into fresh air and being poisoned themselves.

What makes H₂S supremely deadly is that it overwhelms your sense of smell at very low concentrations. The gas gets into your bloodstream and blocks the ability of cells to take up oxygen and you die rather quickly of asphyxiation. You and I can smell the rotten-egg odor of H₂S at extremely low concentrations, but our sense of smell quickly goes "blind" to the odor when the concentration is prolonged or only slightly elevated - at less than 150 ppm for five minutes. It's been said - with a great deal of truth - that if you can smell rotten eggs, you're probably safe but you should be wary . . . when you can't smell it any more, RUN!

Propane and other gases affect your olfactory sense the same way - at elevated concentrations you go "nose blind" rather quickly even before explosive concentrations are reached . . . and think you are safe. Then . . . . well, BOOM! An engine taking in "fuel" in the ambient air will "run away" - a very dangerous proposition for anyone in the vicinity. Gas, diesel, and even gas turbine engines can experience this when significant concentrations of combustible gas is present in air. Most of the time this level of concentration is far above being compatible with human life, but in enclosed spaces, as the cause of a runaway, it represents a set of hazards all its own.

Lil4X
I really don't know as much about diesel as I'd like to.
Is this the case for very many runaway diesel incidents? .

 

[NSTG8R]

Lil4X
I really don't know as much about diesel as I'd like to.
Is this the case for very many runaway diesel incidents? .

As far as I know, 'most' of the runaway diesel engine problems have to do with leaky injectors, or an overfilled crankcase (oil). Diesel's will run on just about anything, so if the oil level gets too high due to injectors leaking fuel down in to the oil pan, and gets high enough to submerge the crank, the engine will whip the oil into a foam and eventually find it's way to the intake circuit....then you've got a vicious circle until the engine grenades.