Possible Futures Of Ev's And-or Fuel Cells.

[WilliamH]

Until they 'standardize' a battery pack that will fit all EVs (okay...maybe a small, medium, large depending on the vehicle size), so all I have to do is pull over a bay and a robot swaps it out for a fresh battery pack within a few minutes time, I'll stick to my fossil fuels.

Not so much standardize the battery pack as standardize the form factor of the battery pack.

 

[Rickb]

Elio will prove to be highly practical in some situations and totally impractical in others .... for now and the foreseeable future, the same is true for electric vehicles .... they are not an end all as some folks want them to be .... they are, in fact, completely useless for many applications .... folks who live in urban areas and drive short distances have much different needs than most folks who live in rural parts of the country where they routinely have to travel long distances .... there is no way, in my lifetime, an electric powered truck that can pull our camper camper cross country will appear on the scene

I don't think most EV enthusiasts believe EVs are an end all, but rather an option that derserves support and consideration to see how much impact Evs may have in beating the oil crunch of the future. Everybody may benefit from EVs and/or Elio's "&" vehicles in the future, not everybody needs to drive them for benefits derived.

That electric powered camper, maybe in our Kids or Grandkids lifetime with 4 x 100hp electric inhub motors giving AWD a totally new meaning. Also, solar powered roof panels on the camper charging the batteries while on the camping adventure.

 

[JEBar]

I don't think most EV enthusiasts believe EVs are an end all, but rather an option that derserves support and consideration to see how much impact Evs may have in beating the oil crunch of the future. Everybody may benefit from EVs and/or Elio's "&" vehicles in the future, not everybody needs to drive them for benefits derived.

That electric powered camper, maybe in our Kids or Grandkids lifetime with 4 x 100hp electric inhub motors giving AWD a totally new meaning. Also, solar powered roof panels on the camper charging the batteries while on the camping adventure.

my views in this area are somewhat jaded as a result being around several committed zealots who are convinced that EV's are the salvation for the future of the world .... OK, bit of an exaggeration but not much of one .... roof mounted solar panels are here today and are used by some folks who "boondock" (AKA dry camp) without utilities .... as you note, practical applications of any such technology for powering RV's is still generations away (if then) .... we've owned one EV which proved to us that, for us, the negatives outweigh the positives

 

[AriLea]

Grandkids lifetime with 4 x 100hp electric inhub motors giving AWD a totally new meaning.

There are some physical limitations throwing doubt on large in-hub motors taking over across the board.

However, the next best thing in currently available tech, that isn't much used, but should be, liquid cooled ac motors with lubeless two-step-stepped belt ratio connected to CV joints/shafts (no shifting required). This takes almost as little vehicle space as a hub motor. 2 or all wheel drives, no problem. The best examples of which are motors the same size as uncooled motors at 10x the output. By volume about 1/4 (or less) and same by weight. The cooling also gives a source of heat for defrosters and the interior. These include automatic energy recovery systems. So your brakes last (almost) 'forever'.

The difference is however about 10x the voltage level, and 10x the motor RPM, at the same wattage, which is a bit more effort, but has a higher level of efficiency built in. It is somewhat more noisy of course, but not as bad as ICE.

This is a very expensive system for one-off vehicles, but easily scales up to low-cost mass production.
-and to go along with JEBar, batteries, batteries, batteries, high density-fast-charge-low-cost batteries. "It ain't in the bag, until it's in the bag."

 

[Hotscoots]

Electric cars , Solar panels and other renewable energy options available today are simply too expensive and too inefficient to serve the masses . Like large screen flat TVs the technology will eventually be affordable and plentiful . Until then , Internal Combustion engines are the only way to go .

 

[AriLea]

Solar and wind in some areas have now gone 'par' with fossil fuels. They are just not 100% available everywhere, not around the clock or not all seasons, hence a big interest in storage systems which adds cost.
Systems currently saving the most money (and co2) in arid country are ones with Natural Gas augmentation. Combined with landfill methane recovery it's a winner. A proposed alternative augmentation is geo-thermal.
But there just will never be enough of those to fully replace energy from fossil fuel mining. By the time fossil fuels run out, we 'better' have a solution.

Just a note:
There IS an environmental cost to everything. Solar, wind and geo thermal included. At the eventual level needed, we just don't know what those are yet.
Even taking nuclear fuel from the ground removes natural heat sources from the earth cooling the crust to a depth. Can we do that for 1 million years with no effects? No, I just don't know what the full effects would be. At minimum you run out of the stuff you depend on, and live with the 'spent' pollution.

If the whole earth had wind-farms, tide-farms etc, would it affect the jet stream, ocean currents and ultimately the orbit of the moon? In a million years? Yes it would. How much? I don't know. Is there a measurable effect in 1000 years? I don't know that either. Someone should check.

The moon is 'naturally' in the slow process of going into face-to-face tidal-lock, and a wider orbit (?in a couple billion years?). The moon's face is already locked facing the earth. If the eventual effect is to stop that process, I can live with that. But if it reverses the process...(? that's where the moon falls back down to earth level?). I'd have a problem with that. There is just sooo much about astro-physics and planetary-physics we common people don't realize.

 

[Rickb]

My understanding is that the main problem with in hub motors is unsprung weight which plays havoc with ride and handling so much tweeking needs to be done with suspension to make it work. Protean Electric and China/VW were partnering to develop a VW Passat with in hub motors. I don't know the status of that project.

 

[AriLea]

My understanding is that the main problem with in hub motors is unsprung weight which plays havoc with ride and handling so much tweeking needs to be done with suspension to make it work. Protean Electric and China/VW were partnering to develop a VW Passat with in hub motors. I don't know the status of that project.

Yes, it's all about how much. And it's a matter of choices. So speaking of street sports level power....

The typical large hub motor now is 5hp up to 10hp. IMHO, the 10hp is way too heavy for the needs of unsprung weight. Improving that with gearing, liquid cooling and high voltage/high RPM out there in the wheel is not a good idea.
If your car can live with 5hp continuous in each hub, then you can just make it with some handling and ride left. In a 2F1R trike, that gives 15hp continuous can do as much as 75hp peak if you get some extra cool air in there. That's categorically equivelent to the Elio power band. Truely not a sports car, but very liveable.

So for the super sports version, minitureization is not possible in a hub motor unless you can discover warm-superconduction with super-super-magnets, and cooling would still need to be solved. For now, you'll need something like the inboard solution I recommended previously, or just a huge motor drive if your vehicle design can stand the extra weight and volume involved. That's how the EV-dragsters do it, a huge-huge heavy motor, and the right battery pack/controller.

The e-dragster guy told me the only limitation to his speed was getting a battery pack that fit the truck and dump enough current for 7 seconds. His motor and controller could take it. (he could always double those up too) He could get maybe 2000amps (at 200v?400v?), but would like as much as 4000amps or more (wholey sparks Batman!). His motor shaft was directly bolted to the drive-line, no tranny at all.

 

[Reid3400]

Yes, it's all about how much. And it's a matter of choices. So speaking of street sports level power....

The typical large hub motor now is 5hp up to 10hp. IMHO, the 10hp is way too heavy for the needs of unsprung weight. Improving that with gearing, liquid cooling and high voltage/high RPM out there in the wheel is not a good idea.
If you car can live with 5hp continuous in each hub, then you can just make it with some handling and ride left. In a 2F1R trike, that gives 15hp continuous and as much as 75hp peak if you get some extra cool air in there. That's categorically equivelent to the Elio power band. Truely not a sports car, but very liveable.

My scooter has 5hp and a nominal 60V x 40A supply, actually 75V when fully charged. It weighs just under 300lbs. I do not want to own any car with 20hp electric. A quick rule of thumb gives you 40hp gas equivalent. Perhaps take a look at the electric 74hp Smartcar and think this over.
http://www.smartusa.com/models/electric-drive/overview.aspx

 

[NSTG8R]

Here ya go, EV fans! Hot off the press from Phys.org. A battery technology that's better than li-ion, cheaper to produce and with none of the fire dangers associated with li-ion batteries.

Enjoy!

http://phys.org/news/2016-12-ultra-...e=menu&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=item-menu