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Starter/generator?

XanWolf

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In the effort to simplify, what are the obstacles to have a single unit do the starter and generator functions? I know most (probably all) cars have switched over to alternators and the starters tend to engage to start then dis-engage while the alternator tends to be driving by belt. However, if the design went back to a generator that would drop one component.

Just a thought....
 

BiloxiGeek

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It doesn't really drop one component since they'd have to add the generator. It's trading the alternator for a generator. A design that hasn't been popular in the consumer automotive world for decades.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to have a design different from almost every other modern car rolling down the road.
 

Coss

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Plus EM has always advertised "90% of all parts are "off the shelf" parts, thus lower cost because you don't have to go through developing new parts".

They stopped using Generators in cars in the mid 60's; so 55 to 60 years ago; Alternators also provide more power for accessories than Generators do.

There are a lot of associated cost with developing something like you idea.
Plus some vendor would have to build enough of them to supply the line, and supply the parts houses after the Elio has been on the road for a while.
Would you like to wait 30 to 90 days for ordering a replacement if yours went bad?
 

XanWolf

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I understand that it would not be simple. I understand that they changed from generators to alternators for reasons. I understand that there are other issues as you have laid out. However,....

I also understand that the entire industry changes at times due to conditions at those times. When they switched to alternators, there were pros and cons. Now, Elio is a ground up effort with some fairly radical changes. If the starter motor requirements are less because of the new engine, then starting from the belt might be feasible. That could simplify the housing around the flywheel. By removing the NEED to have the starter there, other changes might be available for examination. Conversely, perhaps it would work better to have the starter/generator be gear driven and skip the extra item hanging off of the belt(s).

While true that they want to use off-the-shelf parts, they are already redesigning the engine. Apparently, they decided that was a good call.

Also, one example of when a generator is better than an alternator is when your battery goes. It is my understanding that the alternator needs voltage in order to generate electricity. In a generator-based car, aside from a total short where the battery was, you can push-start and continue to run.

Lastly, as with all of my suggestions here, I am only offering more ideas that help break out of "the box". I have long ago found that I am good at that and that most of the ideas are still dwarfed by whatever built the box in the first place. However, sometimes just having re-examined such options help more fully understand exactly why the box boundary is where it is....
 

WilliamH

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I understand that it would not be simple. I understand that they changed from generators to alternators for reasons. I understand that there are other issues as you have laid out. However,....

I also understand that the entire industry changes at times due to conditions at those times. When they switched to alternators, there were pros and cons. Now, Elio is a ground up effort with some fairly radical changes. If the starter motor requirements are less because of the new engine, then starting from the belt might be feasible. That could simplify the housing around the flywheel. By removing the NEED to have the starter there, other changes might be available for examination. Conversely, perhaps it would work better to have the starter/generator be gear driven and skip the extra item hanging off of the belt(s).

While true that they want to use off-the-shelf parts, they are already redesigning the engine. Apparently, they decided that was a good call.

Also, one example of when a generator is better than an alternator is when your battery goes. It is my understanding that the alternator needs voltage in order to generate electricity. In a generator-based car, aside from a total short where the battery was, you can push-start and continue to run.

Lastly, as with all of my suggestions here, I am only offering more ideas that help break out of "the box". I have long ago found that I am good at that and that most of the ideas are still dwarfed by whatever built the box in the first place. However, sometimes just having re-examined such options help more fully understand exactly why the box boundary is where it is....

You might want to read this ---> http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/83.cfm <--- to get a feel why some of us would prefer a sharp pointy stick in the eye to going back to the old generator and voltage regulator. One of my best trouble shooting tools was my nose. When I smelled insulation burning I knew my voltage regulator needed to be replaced. And if I was lucky, I had smelled it before too much of the wiring had burned up.
 

BilgeRat

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Having worked for a shop years back that serviced and rebuilt starters, alternators, generators and starter/generators, I can say that I don't ever recall seeing starter/generators on anything other than fairly small low compression engines, like commercial lawn equipment. They were always a relatively high maintenance item {segmented commutators wear brushes much more quickly than slip rings} and had a low electrical output. Part of the reason for the move to alternators was the increasing electrical demand of more modern vehicles. We've not gone backwards in that department; there's been talk of going to 24 volt systems on big luxury vehicles.

Also, I don't think that there's very much available in the way of off the shelf starter/generators, while the choices for alternators and starters would be almost limitless, and at good prices for purchase in large quantities.

I just remembered while writing this that back at that shop (this would have been in the mid seventies), we did a brisk business selling Motorola alternator kits to farmers to replace the generators on their tractors and combines because the alternators were much less trouble prone.
 

CheeseheadEarl

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Having worked for a shop years back that serviced and rebuilt starters, alternators, generators and starter/generators, I can say that I don't ever recall seeing starter/generators on anything other than fairly small low compression engines, like commercial lawn equipment. They were always a relatively high maintenance item {segmented commutators wear brushes much more quickly than slip rings} and had a low electrical output. Part of the reason for the move to alternators was the increasing electrical demand of more modern vehicles. We've not gone backwards in that department; there's been talk of going to 24 volt systems on big luxury vehicles.

Also, I don't think that there's very much available in the way of off the shelf starter/generators, while the choices for alternators and starters would be almost limitless, and at good prices for purchase in large quantities.

I just remembered while writing this that back at that shop (this would have been in the mid seventies), we did a brisk business selling Motorola alternator kits to farmers to replace the generators on their tractors and combines because the alternators were much less trouble prone.

Yup. It wasn't long ago a 50 amp alternator was a big unit, 37amp Delcos were common on GM cars in the 70s & into the 80s. Now I have a car with a 100 amp, and a pickup with 140.

Both my old generator equipped tractors have been changed to alternators. Much more reliable, and if one goes bad, a reman is in stock at the local parts store. Just don't confuse the kid behind the counter - tell him you need one for a 74 Chevy Nova.
 

BiloxiGeek

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Just don't confuse the kid behind the counter - tell him you need one for a 74 Chevy Nova.
I remember finally discovering that if I needed to replace the alternator for my 70 Datsun roadster 1600 I needed to ask for a mitsubishi forklift alternator, don't remember the particular year or model now. How's that for confusing the counter kid?
 

XanWolf

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You can push start an alternator based vehicle with a manual transmission quite easily. I've done it more than a few times. Doing that does NOT require a generator.

However, it does require a functioning battery. In the generator case, the battery is not required for push-starting. If the battery is malfunctioning in the way of being a direct short (shorting the whole system out) then you would not be able to push-start it with a generator either.... until you disconnected the battery.
 
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