The Wandering Thread

[Rickb]

The key for me is that a variety of energy options helps to insure we will have viable sources in the future to keep us rolling in whatever vehicle choice we make.

 

[Ekh]

ELECTRIC VEHICLES ARE CHEAPER TO OPERATE THAN GAS VEHICLES. FALSE!!!! (IN THE CASE OF THE ELIO, AT LEAST)


I was wondering... MPGe is the EV equivalent to MPG. It gets confusing because the price of electricity varies and that can make a big difference to how "cheap" EVs actually are.

To get the cost of going 100 miles, for instance, you have to divide by gas mileage (whether it's 10 mpg, 25 mpg, or 50 mpg) to get the number of gallons, then multiply that by the cost of gas.

So why not measure an electric car's efficiency in what the owner actually buys?

To parallel that, why not use kilowatt-hours per 100 miles, which can then be multiplied by your electricity cost to get the total cost of running your car for some useful distance.
For a 2012 Nissan Leaf, its average rated efficiency of 99 MPGe translates to 34 kilowatt-hours per 100 miles. Just multiply that by your electric cost.
So if you pay the U.S. average of 12 cents/kWh, the Leaf will cost you $4.08 to go 100 miles (versus $16 in a 25-mpg car with gas at $4/gallon).

Basically, it would be nice to be able to compare two cars regardless of their consumption type by being able to say my car costs $0.23 per mile or such. Let me try that comparison using my current vehicle, an F350 crew cab diesel, clearly a MPG champ.

I get 16MPG using fuel that costs $2.22/gal. So, I pay $13.75/100 miles
My daughter's Prius gets 36MPG on fuel that costs $2.51/gal. She pays $6.97/100 miles
Nissan Leaf uses 34 kwh per 100 miles and the rate in New Mexico is $.1137/kwh so the Leaf would cost $3.87/100 miles

Assuming the average 12,000 mile year, here's what each would cost for the year:
F350 -- $1650.00
Prius -- $ 836.40
Leaf -- $ 464.40
Elio -- $ 358.57





I don't set the fuel prices. I'm using Gasbuddy.com and Albuquerque for both. I also don't control how my daughter drives.

From the example I use, the Prius is less than twice as efficient as my truck though it gets more than twice the mileage. The Leaf is clearly less expensive to drive than either of first two but the Elio will be cheaper to drive than the all electric Leaf. THAT is actually a surprise to me. I had assumed the Leaf would be cheaper. Go Figure.

For me, I'll save $1,292/yr with my Elio vs. driving my truck.

Excellent. Now do the same comparison including purchase price, taxes, insurance cost, and average maintenance cost (Cons. Reports might have that data). Oh, yes, interest for 6 years at 4.5% for each vehicle.

Here's how it works out for me. I've driven a Subaru Forester for the past six years. Paid about $24,000 for it. Have averaged 23.5 mpg for the life of the car. So here's what it cost me per year:

For my '09 Subaru Forester, I paid $4,212 per year in tax and purchase. It would have been $4,500 but I got some trade on on my clunker '01 legacy.

So, $4,212 plus $700 insurance, plus $716 per year maintenance. Gas is about $2,300 per year. Total for Subaru: $7,300 PER YEAR to buy and operate over 6 years. (May be more; the insurance cost may be higher than I'm remembering.

Elio: Optioned-out, minus $1500: $8,300. Let's say I pay it over six years (I won't, but I want the comparison with the Subaru to be fair).

At 4.5%, including tax, the car costs me $118 per month. Insurance (guess) $400 / year. Maintenance is zero for first two years, then figure $500 per year. Gas is $857 @ 18,000 miles per year (I'm higher than most; national average is 13, 200 thereabouts).

So: for six years, the Elio costs me $3,006 dollars per year to buy and operate. It will actually cost me less, because I've included interest that I won't actually be paying.

Total cost for Subaru Forester, over 6 years: $47,568
Total cost for Elio: $18,000


Oddly enough, gas prices don't greatly change the Elio advantage. It's all the other stuff, especially purchase price, interest, insurance, and maintenance, that really make the Elio a bargain.

The roughly $30,000 saved by driving an Elio for 6 years goes into dentist bills, savings (maybe), clothes, vacations, education ... and life is just that much easier for a few million people. Including me. The difference would pay for a trip to New Zealand for my wife and me, AND a canalboat trip through France for the two of us. All for driving a fun, interesting, and comfortable car most of the time.

I'm a cheap SOB. I want my Elio!

 

[Ty]

Excellent. Now do the same comparison including purchase price, taxes, insurance cost, and average maintenance cost (Cons. Reports might have that data). Oh, yes, interest for 6 years at 4.5% for each vehicle.

Here's how it works out for me. I've driven a Subaru Forester for the past six years. Paid about $24,000 for it. Have averaged 23.5 mpg for the life of the car. So here's what it cost me per year:

For my '09 Subaru Forester, I paid $4,212 per year in tax and purchase. It would have been $4,500 but I got some trade on on my clunker '01 legacy.

So, $4,212 plus $700 insurance, plus $716 per year maintenance. Gas is about $2,300 per year. Total for Subaru: $7,300 PER YEAR to buy and operate over 6 years. (May be more; the insurance cost may be higher than I'm remembering.

Elio: Optioned-out, minus $1500: $8,300. Let's say I pay it over six years (I won't, but I want the comparison with the Subaru to be fair).

At 4.5%, including tax, the car costs me $118 per month. Insurance (guess) $400 / year. Maintenance is zero for first two years, then figure $500 per year. Gas is $857 @ 18,000 miles per year (I'm higher than most; national average is 13, 200 thereabouts).

So: for six years, the Elio costs me $3,006 dollars per year to buy and operate. It will actually cost me less, because I've included interest that I won't actually be paying.

Total cost for Subaru Forester, over 6 years: $47,568
Total cost for Elio: $18,000


Oddly enough, gas prices don't greatly change the Elio advantage. It's all the other stuff, especially purchase price, interest, insurance, and maintenance, that really make the Elio a bargain.

The roughly $30,000 saved by driving an Elio for 6 years goes into dentist bills, savings (maybe), clothes, vacations, education ... and life is just that much easier for a few million people. Including me. The difference would pay for a trip to New Zealand for my wife and me, AND a canalboat trip through France for the two of us. All for driving a fun, interesting, and comfortable car most of the time.

I'm a cheap SOB. I want my Elio!

I agree. Starting with a $65,000 diesel getting 16 mpg and costs more than $100 for an oil change every 7,000 miles plus about $22 for DEF every 3,000 miles or so is a horrible start to the comparison.

I didn't feel like figuring out all the associated costs. I just wanted to find the daily driving cost as it is listed on the window sticker. Electricity varies in price a lot more than gas so those MGPe comparisons are not very useful.