10/15/2014 - Tech Talk - Engine Series: Part 1

[tonyspumoni]

You mean the idea of variance and tolerance in processes (sigma is the number of standard deviations from the mean) or the stats behind the concept of systemic failure? Look, I said it was an esoteric question. o_O

I smell Harlan coming to rescue me from my idiocy any second with a well-earned "hey, can we hijack this thread back to reality?"

 

[Dustoff]

Statistics can be used for benificial or nefarious purposes.
Statistics can be used to inform or confuse.

 

[tonyspumoni]

I'm going to rescue myself and hijack this thread back to discussions about the Elio engine by posing a question to those far more knowledgeable than myself in these matters.

Elio Motors originally evaluated the Geo Metro motor and decided that while the basic design principles were sound ones, the motor carried excess weight and had (I'm going out on a limb here) a torque/horsepower curve that was unneeded to power a vehicle so much lighter. And, rather than fiddling about with mods Elio decided to do a melt and re-pour, designing a new engine with the same basic framework but much lighter. The question is: wouldn't there be liquid cooled motorcycle engines that would meet these same requirements as the Elio that would not have necessitated an engine re-design. I realize that motorcycles are not as fuel efficient but this probably has as much to do with their relatively high drag coefficient than basic engine design.

 

[Dustoff]

Why don't all auto manufactures utilize motorcycle engines?

 

[tonyspumoni]

Why don't all auto manufactures utilize motorcycle engines?

Dustoff,

Sorry if my question was a foolish one. I know that a great number of motorcycle engines used to be air cooled but many of them now I see are liquid cooled, just like a car engine but lighter and with power tailored to the weight of the bike. Seems to me like EM could have found a lightweight, liquid-cooled motorcycle engine yielding about 55 hp. I know there has been a good deal of discussion elsewhere about alternative car engines (I recall some discussion about the engine used in the Honda Insight awhile ago), but nothing about motorcycle engines.

 

[JEBar]

The question is: wouldn't there be liquid cooled motorcycle engines that would meet these same requirements as the Elio that would not have necessitated an engine re-design. I realize that motorcycles are not as fuel efficient but this probably has as much to do with their relatively high drag coefficient than basic engine design.

just a hunch that isn't based on an iota of factual info ===> my bet is they did look and simply couldn't find a motor that they felt could provide them with the level of economy, dependability, and performance that required .... if the motor they have developed proves to be all they hope, I tend to believe it will generate income for EM because it will end up being used by other companies

Jim

 

[Dustoff]

No such thing as a foolish question.

 

[Dustoff]

Dustoff,

Sorry if my question was a foolish one. I know that a great number of motorcycle engines used to be air cooled but many of them now I see are liquid cooled, just like a car engine but lighter and with power tailored to the weight of the bike. Seems to me like EM could have found a lightweight, liquid-cooled motorcycle engine yielding about 55 hp. I know there has been a good deal of discussion elsewhere about alternative car engines (I recall some discussion about the engine used in the Honda Insight awhile ago), but nothing about motorcycle engines.

How many motorcycle engines does Honda make?
How many motorcycle engines are in any Hondas other than motorcycles?

 

[goofyone]

The way I understand it the problem was not necessarily finding a suitable engine but finding someone with the right engine for the right price who also had the excess available capacity to provide the volume of engines EM needs. Most companies, especially motorcycle companies, just don't have the excess capacity to contractually guarantee they will have 100,000+ engines a year to deliver to an outside firm.

Also, licensing the rights to build someone else's engine really would not save them any money as EM would still have to invest in building it themselves while paying someone else millions of dollars in royalties each year. It just makes more sense in the long run to invest that money in their own purpose built engine.

 

[Kuda]

Snipped: Also, licensing the rights to build someone else's engine really would not save them any money as EM would still have to invest in building it themselves while paying someone else millions of dollars in royalties each year. It just makes more sense in the long run to invest that money in their own purpose built engine.

Similar argument can be made for the Transmissions,
there are definite economies of scale at play
here. Aisen, ZF & others make private label Trans.
for the global market place & Elio has been shopping
there for some time trying to get the right 'fit', if you
will. Thereby meeting their cost/quality/quanity constraints.
The motor is a different animal altogether, your points
are well taken............