10/3/2014 - Ktal Nbc 6 - Interview With Paul Inside The Factory

[tonyspumoni]

Terrific and high level discussion all. Thanks for pulling all this info out.

 

[Ekh]

This interview has been posted. Key bits of new information: 1. Body panels will be attached to the roll cage with structural adhesive. 2. Outside suppliers are making the body panels and delivering them to Elio -- but they will be manufacturing them in Shreveport! 3. Elio has cleared barrier 1 of 3 in getting the DOE loan guarantee. 4. Elio is no longer seeking outside investment other than the Federal loan guarantee.

Wow, that's a ton of new information.

 

[goofyone]

This interview has been posted. Key bits of new information: 1. Body panels will be attached to the roll cage with structural adhesive. 2. Outside suppliers are making the body panels and delivering them to Elio -- but they will be manufacturing them in Shreveport! 3. Elio has cleared barrier 1 of 3 in getting the DOE loan guarantee. 4. Elio is no longer seeking outside investment other than the Federal loan guarantee.

Wow, that's a ton of new information.

1. Modern advanced epoxies actually chemically bond materials together. These chemically welded areas can actually be stronger than the panels themselves.

2. From Elio's website we already knew that Plastics Research Corporation will be delivering the rolls of sheet molded composite (SMC) materials to Shreveport. GM used this material for various components and the stamping equipment is actually already inside the Shreveport plant. We also already know from a Tech Tech that body panels will be completed inside the Shreveport plant so it would make sense that this operation would be overseen by PRC.
http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=24b371802c83d81776b06aa68&id=727e582c73

3. I find four steps and not three for the ATVM loan application process:

In the first step, an application will be reviewed to see if it is substantially complete. If it is not DOE will notify the applicant what additional information it needs to provide DOE.
Once an application is substantially complete, in the second step, the applicant and the project will be evaluated to determine if they are eligible for the ATVMIP. If they are not eligible, the application review process will end.
If both the applicant and the proposed project are eligible, in the third step, the proposed project will be evaluated, potential terms and conditions of a loan will be developed and a decision will be made whether to make a loan.
The fourth and final step is the negotiation and, if the negotiation is successful, the closing of the loan. The entire process will involve dialogue and exchange of information between the applicant and DOE in each step.

I hope Elio has actually cleared the first two of these steps and not just the first. We already knew about the first step as in the town hall in August we know that EM first submitted the information in July however they were missing an audit so it was not until the second week of August that the application was officially completed and submitted. Hopefully EM has now completed the second step which is being determined to be eligible as meeting the 'ultra efficient vehicle' classification.

4. We will see how EM no longer seeking outside investment other than the Federal loan guarantee plays out. I am sure the current investors want to see the results of how this plays out before deciding on the next steps however this does put the entire production timetable at the mercy of the government and we have no idea how long this process will end up taking regardless of the outcome. All EM can really do now is continue developing the vehicle hoping that the government decides to make a decisions within a reasonable timetable.

 

[Ty]

The panels are not made of metal you can't weld them.

LOL. Exactly. Any bolts to "bolt them on" would no doubt be glued in place. However, I hope they glue the body panels to a support member so they can be swapped out when someone violates the minimal distance requirement s between Elio and random object.

 

[Charlie G]

(d). For purposes of making a determination under paragraph (a)(2) of this section, additional Federal funding includes any loan, grant, guarantee, insurance, payment, rebate, subsidy, credit, tax benefit, or any other form of direct or indirect assistance from the Federal government, or any agency or instrumentality thereof, other than the proceeds of a loan approved under this Part, that is, or is expected to be made available with respect to, the project for which the loan is sought under this Part.

You didn't bold this portion, but it seemed particularly interesting and all-encompassing. Looks like planning for CAFE credits better not be a significant part of their business plan.

 

[Ekh]

1.
3. I find four steps and not three for the ATVM loan application process:

In the first step, an application will be reviewed to see if it is substantially complete. If it is not DOE will notify the applicant what additional information it needs to provide DOE.
Once an application is substantially complete, in the second step, the applicant and the project will be evaluated to determine if they are eligible for the ATVMIP. If they are not eligible, the application review process will end.
If both the applicant and the proposed project are eligible, in the third step, the proposed project will be evaluated, potential terms and conditions of a loan will be developed and a decision will be made whether to make a loan.
The fourth and final step is the negotiation and, if the negotiation is successful, the closing of the loan. The entire process will involve dialogue and exchange of information between the applicant and DOE in each step.

I hope Elio has actually cleared the first two of these steps and not just the first. We already knew about the first step as in the town hall in August we know that EM first submitted the information in July however they were missing an audit so it was not until the second week of August that the application was officially completed and submitted. Hopefully EM has now completed the second step which is being determined to be eligible as meeting the 'ultra efficient vehicle' classification.

.

I was quoting the Shreveport newscaster who said "Elio has already cleared the first of three hurdles [for the Federal loan]". Perhaps he would benefit from your explanation. My guess is that Elio really did mean, as you suggest, that they've actually cleared the second of two,a nd that the first was so blindingly obvious that he didn't even consider it while talking to the newscaster, who doubtless took his info from Elio and not from actually researching the grant app process as you have done. My reason for ithsi conclusion is that it's been a couple of months since the loan app was submitted, and I (among others who wrote to DOE on this matter) received a letter dated 9/18 that the review process was under way, Ergo, they must have cleared one, and with the timing, I suspect you're right, they're past 2 as all.

The second step, as I recall, was potentially a problem for Elio -- lack of experience as a manufacturing firm (too new). As Paul explained in one of his interviews, they hadn't even had an outside audit of their books until they applied for the loan guarantee and discovered they needed one!

The other potential challenge for this application is the need for demonstrated hours of test results for the technology being supported. These grants are intended for technology innovations by established firms, not for start-ups. (That's in the DOE explanatory materials and underlies the requirement for operating results in order to get a loan guarantee). However, I am hopeful (and so is Mr. Elio) that DOE has understood the importance of this project and is being flexible, accepting computer tests and simulations for a lot of the operating time data they would normally require.

I seem to recall reading or hearing back when the app was being submitted that the DOE had been encouraging about Elio's initial app (except for the lack of an audit, which was remedied). And they're certainly taking a heck of a time getting around to "no." Also, Paul seems noticeably upbeat these days, and is clearly happy to see things starting to move in Shreveport.

But getting real-world test results (as from running the new engine and using those results coupled with wind-tunnel testing of the P4) to certify the mpg achievement would certainly make a positive difference. Let's hope those things can happen very soon (or, in the case of the engine bench tests) may already be happening.

 

[Ekh]

[QUOTE=" However, I hope they glue the body panels to a support member so they can be swapped out when someone violates the minimal distance requirement s between Elio and random object.[/QUOTE]

I'd had the same thought -- body shops may be challenged by the Elio. I like the delicacy of your phrasing!!

 

[RMClubfitter]

1. Modern advanced epoxies actually chemically bond materials together. These chemically welded areas can actually be stronger than the panels themselves.

2. From Elio's website we already knew that Plastics Research Corporation will be delivering the rolls of sheet molded composite (SMC) materials to Shreveport. GM used this material for various components and the stamping equipment is actually already inside the Shreveport plant. We also already know from a Tech Tech that body panels will be completed inside the Shreveport plant so it would make sense that this operation would be overseen by PRC.
http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=24b371802c83d81776b06aa68&id=727e582c73

.

The epoxy used attaching a golf club to a shaft can withstand thousands of violent swings from golfers. Lot of torque their. Only extreme heat can break that bond. I'm sure the bond for epoxy's we're talking here are far better.

 

[goofyone]

I was quoting the Shreveport newscaster who said "Elio has already cleared the first of three hurdles [for the Federal loan]". Perhaps he would benefit from your explanation. My guess is that Elio really did mean, as you suggest, that they've actually cleared the second of two,a nd that the first was so blindingly obvious that he didn't even consider it while talking to the newscaster, who doubtless took his info from Elio and not from actually researching the grant app process as you have done. My reason for ithsi conclusion is that it's been a couple of months since the loan app was submitted, and I (among others who wrote to DOE on this matter) received a letter dated 9/18 that the review process was under way, Ergo, they must have cleared one, and with the timing, I suspect you're right, they're past 2 as all.

The second step, as I recall, was potentially a problem for Elio -- lack of experience as a manufacturing firm (too new). As Paul explained in one of his interviews, they hadn't even had an outside audit of their books until they applied for the loan guarantee and discovered they needed one!

The other potential challenge for this application is the need for demonstrated hours of test results for the technology being supported. These grants are intended for technology innovations by established firms, not for start-ups. (That's in the DOE explanatory materials and underlies the requirement for operating results in order to get a loan guarantee). However, I am hopeful (and so is Mr. Elio) that DOE has understood the importance of this project and is being flexible, accepting computer tests and simulations for a lot of the operating time data they would normally require.

I seem to recall reading or hearing back when the app was being submitted that the DOE had been encouraging about Elio's initial app (except for the lack of an audit, which was remedied). And they're certainly taking a heck of a time getting around to "no." Also, Paul seems noticeably upbeat these days, and is clearly happy to see things starting to move in Shreveport.

But getting real-world test results (as from running the new engine and using those results coupled with wind-tunnel testing of the P4) to certify the mpg achievement would certainly make a positive difference. Let's hope those things can happen very soon (or, in the case of the engine bench tests) may already be happening.

I heard the newscaster says the three steps also and I also figured that the application submission was likely excluded from the steps for simplicity however I had to point it out as I know someone would bring it up if I didn't.


I believe all the technology requirements have caused a lot of confusion when people read them however, as far as I can tell, the technology proof or hours of testing requirements are not required of Elio Motors as they are not applying for the advanced technology part of the program but instead they are applying for the "Ultra Efficient Vehicle' portion.

It looks like the requirements for an ultra efficient vehicle are straight forwards as all EM must demonstrate is that they are reasonably financially viable, as defined in my previous post, and that the planned vehicle can carry two people in a fully enclosed cabin and deliver at least 75 MPG or MPG equivalent.

The "Ultra Efficient Vehicle' part of the program is apparently also more easily open to start-ups as in the law ultra efficient vehicle manufacturers are specifically given priority even if the manufacturing facility is currently sitting idle. Small automobile manufacturers are also specifically given priority in minimum funding aimed at small companies.

(a) Definitions
(5) Ultra efficient vehicle
The term “ultra efficient vehicle” means a fully closed compartment vehicle designed to carry at least 2 adult passengers that achieves—
(A) at least 75 miles per gallon while operating on gasoline or diesel fuel;
(B) at least 75 miles per gallon equivalent while operating as a hybrid electric-gasoline or electric-diesel vehicle; or
(C) at least 75 miles per gallon equivalent while operating as a fully electric vehicle.


(g) Priority
The Secretary shall, in making awards or loans to those manufacturers that have existing facilities, give priority to those facilities that are oldest or have been in existence for at least 20 years or are utilized primarily for the manufacture of ultra efficient vehicles. Such facilities can currently be sitting idle.


(h) Set aside for small automobile manufacturers and component suppliers
(1) Definition of covered firm
In this subsection, the term “covered firm” means a firm that—
(A) employs less than 500 individuals; and
(B) manufactures ultra efficient vehicles, automobiles, or components of automobiles.
(2) Set aside
Of the amount of funds that are used to provide awards for each fiscal year under subsection (b), the Secretary shall use not less than 10 percent to provide awards to covered firms or consortia led by a covered firm.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/17013#FN-3REF

So all this tells me that from the point of view of qualifying for the program as an Ultra Efficient Vehicle manufacturer there should be no problems. Where we circle back to is the fact that the big questions is can EM convince the Federal government that they meet the financial viability test as set forth in the law and discussed previously.

 

[goofyone]

You didn't bold this portion, but it seemed particularly interesting and all-encompassing. Looks like planning for CAFE credits better not be a significant part of their business plan.

The only business plans we have seen have not included the Federal CAFE credit schemes and this is what I assume EM has submitted to the government as their primary business plan. It is also possible EM could have submitted several plans showing various scenarios including at least one where CAFE credits come into play.