Speedym7
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I went all in for $1000 on 8/18/2014
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Experienced drivers have a higher measure of acceptance and on that end, it's kinda funny how you could go all-in for 3 ELIO 3wheeler without having drive tested it in different conditions (snow, gravel, crash worthiness, CG issues, 4 wheels vs 3, etc.) ??? US city freeways does not scare me at all...buying a car you've never tested is! There's always that element of risk on anything you do, what you drive and how you drive and believe you me, the untested ELIO will be subjected to the same brutal environment and if not used as intended (going faster than allowed, modifying the engine, etc.) one can get in a lot of trouble just like the cars you mentioned!
By the way, you may wanna consult these guys how VW beetle is driven on gravel road!
Class 11 Beetle
First up was a Class 11 bug. This was, as near as I could tell (no one was very sure), a 1959 Beetle. Or it had been. Class 11 is for stock VW Beetles with drum brakes and 1,600cc air-cooled flat-four engines. Suspension must be stock, with some modifications allowed. What that leaves you with is a stripped-out interior and maybe 60 to 80 hp.
Volkswagen had brought in the family fun-oriented sanctioning body M.O.R.E., Mojave Off-road Racing Enthusiasts, to help out. M.O.R.E. had laid out a 10-mile loop course for us press dolts to bang around in out in the Mojave near the Slash X Café (a place that deserves its own story, for another day). My first lap was in the black Class 11 bug you see here, driven by M.O.R.E. president Cody Jeffers.
“There’s not a lot of power in these,” Jeffers said of the Class 11 Beetle as we loped off into the desert.
Indeed, we were moving at what might have been 25 or 30 mph. The bug was surprisingly good at soaking up bumps, though. The suspension travel was more than I’d expected. Bracing my carcass for impact on the first few whoop-dee-doos, I was relieved to find that the bug took up most of the wallop. When it was my turn to take the wheel, I went a little faster but still enjoyed the suspension travel. It was fun, if a little abusive.
The Class 9. That front end gets light.
Next was the long, thin, yellow Class 9 machine you also see here, somewhere, I hope. Class 9 cars are powered by Volkswagen 1,600cc engines, but more modifications are allowed. The chassis is a welded tube frame with a 100-inch wheelbase.
“This thing can really fly,” said Jeffers. “You want to be sure and keep it straight.”
You climb into a Class 9 by opening the roof and sliding down into it, like a ball turret gunner.
“Don’t wrap your thumbs around the wheel,” Jeffers further counseled. “Your thumbs will get torn off.”
With that, I fired the engine and headed out. The Class 9 was, in fact, faster. More power, less weight. And it was a bit of a handful keeping straight at what might have been 60 mph. Might have been 50. Who knows? The trick was to avoid establishing some kind of frequency oscillation, or harmonic frequency, or whatever you call it when energy is loaded and unloaded into the suspension and increases the amount of fishtailing and over-correcting you’re doing in the rack-and-pinion steering. Just keep going straight, is something I seem to have learned over the years. Which I did.
The front end of the Class 9 was light; Jeffers had earlier picked it up off the ground to show exactly how light. Launch off a little road wallop and you’re flying through the air. In those situations, it’s important that you are going straight so that when you land you can keep going straight instead of rolling over a couple times. I was really doing well, I told myself...maybe I could buy one of these and race it in M.O.R.E.’s six points-race season. Hmm, you can buy a decent Class 9 buggy for four grand, a trailer would be one grand, maybe I could…then I stalled it and my race dreams died, along with the carburetor I’d just flooded.
The all-conquering Class 5
Next was a mighty Class 5 Unlimited bug. This one belonged to Darryl Clifton, whose family had been working on it for decades, since he and his father had bought it when he was 15, which was, guessing here, 30 years ago? After rebuilding the whole car “two or three times,” it was now about as modified as you could get a Volkswagen Beetle. With engines of up to 3.0 liters allowed and long, long suspension travel, the cars in this class were fast.
Clifton drove, which was probably a good idea.
Bumps that I’d slowed down for or crawled over in the Class 9 and 11 cars were mere Botts' Dots to this thing. We flew, at great speed, over everything. This would be much more entertaining and far less painful to race.
The Dune Runner. Note the Mercedes front end.
Finally, I got into a sort of dune buggy thing that Jeffers owned. It was a two-seater fiberglass kit that was sold in the 1960s and '70s as the “Dune Runner” from dune buggy enterprises (yep, all lower case) in Westminster, California. This one was the Dune Runner with the “Mini-Mercedes-style hood.” I’m sure Mercedes didn’t have copyright lawyers in 1960. Whatever.
Now, I’ve ridden in real Meyers Manxes -- in fact, I drove the original Big Red in Baja with Bruce Meyers. This Dune Runner thing was not like that. It was like an escapee from Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride at Disneyland. With just one other person in it, the Dune Runner scraped its fenders on the slightest bump. It needs some ground clearance. Or some ride height. Or some springs and shocks. But it served to demonstrate the breadth and depth of the Volkswagen presence in desert fun buggies of all kinds.
Bruce Meyers in the Meyers Manx 50 years ago.
“Baja bugs are the easiest thing to get into racing with,” said Meyers. “Ya mess around with it. They have Class 11, it’s the largest class of all. So what have we got? A love affair that’s going on with these Volkswagens.”
A love affair that, for racers, is just as strong today as it was 50 years ago. For California, that has to be some kind of record.
MARK VAUGHN - West Coast Editor, covers all things west of the Mississippi from his Autoweek lair high above the LA metropolis.
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It's fun to see you guys defend mid-engine cars that were nicely and properly engineered. And in the case of the dune buggy used in a environment with driver intentions matching expectations. My own bug miss-hap had everything to do with my lack of code-switching to sand and gravel driving versus street antics. I consider both theaters acceptable implementations of vehicle designs.
In the moment I had my accident I didn't understand what I was feeling out of the car. I was very young at the time.
As for my Chevota, as a mid-engine, I did need to test it before I can affirm it's success in ice and snow, but I expect it would do as well as the 911, which is reasonably acceptable. But driving up to go skiing on an icy mountain road? I'd rather take my 1970 Ford Fiesta for that one(FWD). I never needed chains, and passed many-a-car putting theirs on.
All of that is of course apples and oranges comparisons, when considering using RWD in the 3 wheel layout. I don't need testing to know, when the power is opposite the 2 wheels and in designing where the CG is, you always trade off rollover for traction.
And in the case of 2 wheels back (1F2R-like Reliant Robbin), even with power at the two wheels, there are 3 distinct (no warning) swap-overs of under-steer versus over-steer as speed increases in a turn. That case of over/vs/under can be mitigated (to a degree) by lower CG and longer wheelbase. I've had 'epic' discussion about the road worthiness of 1F2R versus 2F1R. Seemingly, unknown to everyone, the actual argument is about what level of dynamic instability is acceptable. It very much depends on the driver.
Like the issue of the Reliant Robbin as driven by Jeremy Clarkson, yes DON'T drive it like that and you'll probably be fine. But would the young and impatient do OK too? After their first roll-over they will very likely do just fine.
At the very minimum take my advise on this; NEVER let Jeremy Clarkson drive anything you own!
In the moment I had my accident I didn't understand what I was feeling out of the car. I was very young at the time.
As for my Chevota, as a mid-engine, I did need to test it before I can affirm it's success in ice and snow, but I expect it would do as well as the 911, which is reasonably acceptable. But driving up to go skiing on an icy mountain road? I'd rather take my 1970 Ford Fiesta for that one(FWD). I never needed chains, and passed many-a-car putting theirs on.
All of that is of course apples and oranges comparisons, when considering using RWD in the 3 wheel layout. I don't need testing to know, when the power is opposite the 2 wheels and in designing where the CG is, you always trade off rollover for traction.
And in the case of 2 wheels back (1F2R-like Reliant Robbin), even with power at the two wheels, there are 3 distinct (no warning) swap-overs of under-steer versus over-steer as speed increases in a turn. That case of over/vs/under can be mitigated (to a degree) by lower CG and longer wheelbase. I've had 'epic' discussion about the road worthiness of 1F2R versus 2F1R. Seemingly, unknown to everyone, the actual argument is about what level of dynamic instability is acceptable. It very much depends on the driver.
Like the issue of the Reliant Robbin as driven by Jeremy Clarkson, yes DON'T drive it like that and you'll probably be fine. But would the young and impatient do OK too? After their first roll-over they will very likely do just fine.
At the very minimum take my advise on this; NEVER let Jeremy Clarkson drive anything you own!
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RSchneider
Elio Addict
You do realize what was wrong with Beetles and why they rolled pretty easy? It was the swing axle. When they went to IRS, it helped a ton. As for 911's, Porsche has beaten that horse so long, they got it figured out. It went from the SWB (which was a handful) to the LWB. Then they got rid of that trailing arm setup and that makes a big jump to a car that handled really well ans worked in many conditions. With that, Mid engine is the way to go but not for practicality, thus toys are made into mid engine.
As for the Reliant Robin, they welded up the spider gears and it made it really easy to roll.
If you ever go to an offroad event, many of those Baja Bugs are a tube frame chassis with a beetle body bolted on and as of today, many are carbon fiber.
Then for grip, tires make the difference. My old Z4 would run circles around 4wd SUV's and every FWD car without snows. There are three things you need to do with any car. Go, stop and turn. Snows all all three. No snows, then turning and stopping become terrible but you might be able to go.
As for the Reliant Robin, they welded up the spider gears and it made it really easy to roll.
If you ever go to an offroad event, many of those Baja Bugs are a tube frame chassis with a beetle body bolted on and as of today, many are carbon fiber.
Then for grip, tires make the difference. My old Z4 would run circles around 4wd SUV's and every FWD car without snows. There are three things you need to do with any car. Go, stop and turn. Snows all all three. No snows, then turning and stopping become terrible but you might be able to go.
Yes, I have heard the things you mentioned. Swing arms are a classic issue. But not the reason for my personal fail. (I was not on a turn at the time)
And the VW was also acceptable (for most people) in a good crosswind, but not so much at high-speed plus a high crosswind. In this case the CG is behind the center-of pressure, which causes the problem. There are a number of reasons any Porsche (say a 911?) is better than a VW in a cross-wind. I've been a passenger in a 914 at 129mph in AZ. Passing a truck was interesting. I wouldn't try that if your VW could go that fast. I wouldn't try the 914 at over 160mph. The 914? sure. All three are below my threshold below 55mph in most any crosswind.
Again, it's your threshold that makes the call. As for the Robin and this one in the link below, no way is 120mph below my threshold.
https://newatlas.com/twike-5-pedal-assist-car/58899/
I would definitely trust the Elio above the Twike, or VW or Reliant at 120mph in any weather. I'd prefer the 911 at 120MPH.
On black-ice, I'll take the VW over the 911. And the Elio above both.
I prefer my Atlantric at 120MP'G' (raw estimate) :-)
:-)
And the VW was also acceptable (for most people) in a good crosswind, but not so much at high-speed plus a high crosswind. In this case the CG is behind the center-of pressure, which causes the problem. There are a number of reasons any Porsche (say a 911?) is better than a VW in a cross-wind. I've been a passenger in a 914 at 129mph in AZ. Passing a truck was interesting. I wouldn't try that if your VW could go that fast. I wouldn't try the 914 at over 160mph. The 914? sure. All three are below my threshold below 55mph in most any crosswind.
Again, it's your threshold that makes the call. As for the Robin and this one in the link below, no way is 120mph below my threshold.
https://newatlas.com/twike-5-pedal-assist-car/58899/
I would definitely trust the Elio above the Twike, or VW or Reliant at 120mph in any weather. I'd prefer the 911 at 120MPH.
On black-ice, I'll take the VW over the 911. And the Elio above both.
I prefer my Atlantric at 120MP'G' (raw estimate) :-)
:-)
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NSTG8R
Elio Addict
On black-ice, I'll take my couch and the TV so I can check out all the wrecks I'm not in.
I've got a 914, three actually, none road-ready at present time. When my '74 was on the road it was quite the blast to drive, particularly on the curvy roads. Great on the highway too. I've heard, but can't confirm myself, that once you break traction in a curve, like on a slalom course, you're going to be taking a ride to spin city before you have time to react because of the mid-engine. Seen a few videos of guys losing it. Might try it myself when I get one running and there a big empty parking lot around!
"On black-ice, I'll take my couch and the TV so I can check out all the wrecks I'm not in."On black-ice, I'll take my couch and the TV so I can check out all the wrecks I'm not in.
I've got a 914, three actually, none road-ready at present time. When my '74 was on the road it was quite the blast to drive, particularly on the curvy roads. Great on the highway too. I've heard, but can't confirm myself, that once you break traction in a curve, like on a slalom course, you're going to be taking a ride to spin city before you have time to react because of the mid-engine. Seen a few videos of guys losing it. Might try it myself when I get one running and there a big empty parking lot around!
Except...some people just don't get it NSTG8R!The best handling car in the world mean nothing to a mechanically challenged driver!
P.s. An autopilot might work for them....then maybe not! (Trying to manually drive it while set on autopilot 
)RSchneider
Elio Addict
Also, how about we compare modern cars and not some old Bug or 914, that a modern SUV could easily out do today.The best handling car in the world mean nothing to a mechanically challenged driver!
Also on a side note, I have wondering about this "Atlantic" and the only thing I can see as to what it is is a Mexican VW Jetta from the 80's.
Same here but whatever it is, at 120 mpg it must be running at 15 mph or slower so is not really street legal!