Cozy Three Wheeler Ev?

[RSchneider]

I know what would be a good topic for the next Elio Blog.
"The Flying Elio Questions Answered"

 

[AriLea]

speaking of Cozy... as well as three wheels and EV... there is an update...

My only issue, since it's sociable seating, why do this? I'll give some at the point that it does have a tight-ass, and probably better aerodynamics than any comparable 4 wheel sociable seater. On a simple mileage basis it can't beat out an inline tandem layout that the Elio presents. But hopefully Sondors will actually produce it. We'll see if being an EV will acquire a better funding result. If it does, then Elio should re-consider that potential from an EV offer. It's pretty easy to convert to EV engineering wise, harder around the issue of sales delivery pricing. Aftermarket pack could also be easily accommodated.

Rule of thumb currently:
If you start with a vehicle in sociable seating engineered for 4 wheels, then fully re-engineer to 3, the typical maximum gross weight savings is around 25%. The average and actual savings tend more towards 15%(tandem could push you more back to 25% or better). Weight is maybe 40% of the sphere of consideration, aerodynamics another 40% and drivetrain/suspension (including tires) about another 20%. To get 50% MPG savings you likely have to hit 50% on all three.

I should note, the cost of engineering EV using current hardware is lower than developing a brand-new ICE production. (even though a newly engineered EV would likely be nicer) So they don't have to spread that cost over as much in volume sales. But still battery pricing is challenging. One way to offset that is offer a small battery, as well as upgrade pricing. Then the basic model will appear to be low priced (for a limited 30 to 50 mile range!). And so then most people will choose to buy the 'range' package.

http://siamagazin.com/sondors-ev-three-wheeled-prototype-review-drive/

 

[Elio Amazed]

speaking of Cozy... as well as three wheels and EV... there is an update...

Video was posted on the Sondors EV thread December 21, 2017.
elioowners.com/threads/sondors-electric-car.7832/page-56#post-191730

The Sondor ranges will be:
75 miles = $10,000
150 miles = $13,000
200 miles = $16,000
Production model will be FWD.
No word on MPGe yet.

 

[BigWarpGuy]

Here is the MyNobe web site.

 

[BigWarpGuy]

MyNobeCar.

 

[BigWarpGuy]

The MyNobe website. I think this is the Cozy. The design is very similar.

I like this arrangement.

 

[Rob Croson]

No airbags. Any guesses as to what other safety systems they left off?

Designs like this, lacking safety systems that consumers expect to be standard on vehicles, are going to give the whole three-wheeler market a very bad name. The first few accidents that cause severe injuries, and you KNOW they will happen, are going to cause a rush to enact legislation specifically to prevent the regulatory loopholes that are being exploited by fly-by-night companies like this.

 

[AriLea]

....going to cause a rush to enact legislation specifically to prevent the regulatory loopholes that are being exploited by fly-by-night companies like this.

Big mixed bag of trends involved here, some pushing one way, some pushing the other.

One way to avoid regulation interference is to snuggle up close to the persona of motorcycles as tightly as possible. In-line seating and less than a full body are two ways that can happen. But no mater, the more popular any vehicle form factor the more likely regulations creep in.

If motorcycles represented a much stronger percentage of the main traffic, they would suffer more of the same fate. The sport persona however gives them the ability for higher pricing, and that is part of a glass ceiling to higher volume sales.

On the other hand, this -myNobe- vehicle has very little difference from a mini-subcompact EV. And that lack of differentiation limits the justification to buy one. IF it becomes more regulated, it becomes more complex and expensive, reducing even more any reason to buy one. In a sociable seater, it's more likely a mini-4 wheeler EV will garner the volume needed to reduce the price and offset the costs from consumer regulations.

BUT, it IS a three wheeler. There is a small but dedicated cadre of people who want one specifically for that. And there aren't enough of them to make it too popular on that one point. So it's not likely to break glass ceiling of volume. Tandem seating has a similar tradeoff of issues. These items on their own are like the motorcycle, justifying a slightly higher price all the while creating a glass ceiling. (uniqueness, high mileage, and green credential are similar on their own)

Anyway, on a 'designed-to-be' low production 3wheel product, tandem or single seating (all points together) puts it closer to the perception of alternate transportation and hopefully restricts the likelihood of oppressive regulations. Both accounts (less complex-less wheels, less requirements) keeps the price lower and therefore allows higher sales at higher price ..... up to a point. (that break point is very hard to know, as Smart Car USA well knows)

This was the genius of the Elio plan, they had no fear of higher regulation with volume sales, since they were already compliant with the likely regulations that would emerge. They simply planned for volume sales. All they had left to do was attack the current limiting regulations based on actual motorcycles...oh yea, and find funding.

Having succeeded at the Autocycle regulations, and solidified the market research, I think it's only a mater of finding 'sudden courage' that will see a vehicle like the Elio appear. All the other doors are now open to it via the autocycle.

There is one caveat for three wheelers, well really two. The perception of safety and the reality of it. Front wheel drive in a 2F1R form factor with low center-of-gravity fixes the reality, and having the public understand that fact fixes the other. This is why the safety tests were so very important.

I think one other thing Elio Motors could have done was produce a video of 4 vehicles trying to drive up an icy hill. If none are 4 wheel drive, the Elio could out climb them all, having 60% weight on the driving wheels. You just need the perfect icy ramp for that(,one that only the Elio can get to the top of). That would have helped with the perception of safety, even while that isn't very meaningful from a safety-physics point of view. It would be iconic video and that creates persona. Well, maybe an old VW bug could do almost as well in that test, and that would only enhance Elio, since the VW was an alternate that also broke with tradition as an American success story.

So which of these two could go forward up an icy hill the best?

The red car would be worse than many, the best is the white Mathis of course. The red is RWD, with cg a little too forward, the white is FWD at about the Elio ratio.

 

[Rob Croson]

One way to avoid regulation interference is to snuggle up close to the persona of motorcycles as tightly as possible. In-line seating and less than a full body are two ways that can happen. But no mater, the more popular any vehicle form factor the more likely regulations creep in.

Regulation-wise, yes, they have to go with the motorcycle/autocycle claim. But you won't see them advertised or marketed as motorcycles. Just like you don't see the Elio, the Sondors, or the Solo advertised as motorcycles. They are squarely targeted at the small car market. There is a expectation of car-level safety, not motorcycle-level safety.

This could easily get them branded as deceptively marketed: Small cars, but not subject to the safety regulations of cars. Really, that's the only reason something like this is made as a three-wheeler: to avoid the regulations for four-wheelers. If they ever get anywhere near threatening to the traditional auto market, the laws will be changed to force the "autocycles" to conform to standard car safety regulations. The typical politician will take up the fight as soon as someone in their jurisdiction dies or suffers serious injury in an accident where an airbag would have saved them. And suddenly autocycles are branded as death traps. And lets not forget the average class-action lawsuit lawyer looking to make a few million.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Regulation-wise, yes, they have to go with the motorcycle/autocycle claim. But you won't see them advertised or marketed as motorcycles. Just like you don't see the Elio, the Sondors, or the Solo advertised as motorcycles. They are squarely targeted at the small car market. There is a expectation of car-level safety, not motorcycle-level safety.

This could easily get them branded as deceptively marketed: Small cars, but not subject to the safety regulations of cars. Really, that's the only reason something like this is made as a three-wheeler: to avoid the regulations for four-wheelers. If they ever get anywhere near threatening to the traditional auto market, the laws will be changed to force the "autocycles" to conform to standard car safety regulations. The typical politician will take up the fight as soon as someone in their jurisdiction dies or suffers serious injury in an accident where an airbag would have saved them. And suddenly autocycles are branded as death traps. And lets not forget the average class-action lawsuit lawyer looking to make a few million.

Yeah, well that's one opinion. Sounds remarkably similar to the EM party line.

This from the Arcimoto FB group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/192...163850&notif_t=group_comment_follow&ref=notif

" This interesting development about trikes was in my motorcycle insurance news letter: "No Special License Needed. At least two more states – Colorado and Wyoming – have reclassified trikes so anyone with a driver’s license can hop on and go for a spin without having a motorcycle license or special endorsement.

In its nationwide effort, the trike industry has convinced at least 30 states to recognize the distinction between motorcycles and trikes, allowing the more mainstream driver’s license requirement."

Popeye Gordon Continued - "Offering better stability than motorcycles, trikes appeal to those looking for a potentially safer ride. And, within the trike genre, the so-called “reverse” or “tadpole” trikes – those with two front wheels – are seen as the most stable.

With balance removed as a prerequisite, trikes also appeal to those who have never ridden a motorcycle, yet are drawn by the perception of being able to experience a ride similar to that of a bike without as much risk.

New Trike Varieties On The Horizon
Some longtime motorcyclists intrigued by the concept have taken to a type of hybrid, a traditional motorcycle body fitted with an extra front wheel, complete with its own suspension. Called “leaning” or “tilting” models, the vehicles offer increased stability while retaining the open-air feel of riding a two-wheeler.

Though in its relative infancy, the trike sector is seeing considerable innovation, including one model sleekly styled along the lines of a typical auto exoskeleton. Electric models are also in the development stages.

The trike is already being welcomed into the pantheon of industrial vehicles. One national overnight delivery service is using an electric trike for its ground deliveries in one test market in the U.S.

And, for those who find their thrills in experimental vehicles, one inventor in France has concocted a trike that uses rainwater for propulsion. With 35 gallons of water under 6,000 pounds of pressure per square inch, the trike went from 0 – 62 miles per hour in 0.55 seconds. It topped out at 162 mph in an eighth of a mile. Don’t look for a production model anytime soon."

I do believe that the current and near future 3W manufacturers need to immediately start filling a large amount of the page with disclaimers in large font even to the detriment of potential sales if they don't want big auto and big brother to step in. That said, IMHO, the Elio will never be anywhere near as safe as the average major auto makers' four wheelers, no matter how many air bags EM puts on it. So if this is a legitimate view of an unavoidable future, what are we even doing here?