Metal...body?

[Ekh]

So is stamped metal (steel?)? Or not? Curious, but I can live with steel or SMC since I believe the weight will be similar with either steel or SMC (from recent posts). Unclear from recent posts if the panel material has been decided? I believe aluminum or carbon fiber panels would have to be aftermarket options? To keep the base price at $6800?

You're right about aluminum and carbon fibre being out, and so is titanium, magnesium, and a slew of other alloys. The final panel material may or not have been decided; the language is ambiguous enough to leave some doubt. My guess: stamped steel.

 

[bowers baldwin]

SMC is not the process we use either. Only prepreg CF and Kevlar on the components we make. Definitely more time and labor intensive. Then again, I don't suppose an Elio will be pulling 10g's in the corners.

I'd be totally happy with a 2G lateral.

 

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

Body panel material is not one of the 4 "Must Haves". It is only a means to achieve the "Must Haves".

Vehicle longevity is also not a "Must Have", but Mr. Elio is not an idiot. He knows that poor long-term quality will kill sales as surely as poor initial quality will. Which is a nice segue into:

The Zastava "Yugo" was a bad copy of a Malaise Era Fiat made in a Socialist republic. Quality was not Job One™. I remember it being sold as an affordable primary vehicle in all the ads I saw and read. I expect the motivated American workers in Shreveport will build to a much higher standard.

(Curiously, while they made horrible automobiles, Zastava is well know for making excellent firearms.)

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

My heretofore unspoken concern has been cure cycles. Our production limitation on the Back to Future cars was the cure time on the door panels. That was the limiting factor. Presently, on our molded composite repairs that are vacuum bagged, the cure cycle is still the limiting factor. You cannot get a faster or better cake by turning up the heat. A catalytic cure can be accelerated, but that has limitations. Whereas, a steel panel can be stamped or hydro- formed in seconds. I am sure that any change will be driven by costs. I still trust Paul and EM to pursue the vision of an affordable personal transportation.

This part speaks to me more that the rest of the conversation combined.
With the very high production rate of the Elio, any part that takes up space for hours at a time is a massive liability.
So the key resource is time, not weight.

For a composite to be manufactured at the same rate as stamped steel, you'd need 10-20 times the manufacturing station requiring space and investment for additional work stations.

My meaning:
Composite. Form, cure (10 minutes, 4 hours, I'm honestly not sure)
Stamped Steel: *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT!

 

[Ty]

I know a composite body isn't part of the 4 tenants, but it sure would be nice not to be constantly touching up rusted spots after the first few years like I have to do on my 17 year old Mercedes SUV. Prevention is a lot easier than repair, and a lot less work. No metal treatments I've seen on new cars hold up in the long term after the sacrificial treatments are used up.

I find that my vehicles, which have seen plenty of snow and road salt (Minot, Nd, Dayton, OH), I have never had any body rust. I keep them waxed though and feel the wax helps keep water from penetrating the paint and causing rust from beneath... I can't prove that is the reason my cars stay looking great but I have always parked them outside and they fare better than the people around me.

 

[Ty]

Actually, SMC has a raw material to cured component of around 3 minutes. The SMC comes as fiber infused resin slab. They slap it into a heated mold of the component [male/female], and the heat and pressure form the component. Very quick, very easy, fairly durable final product, dimensionally stable, and the tooling is much cheaper to produce.

This site explains the process nicely:

http://moldedfiberglass.com/processes/processes/closed-molding-processes/compression-molding-process

4 stations producing each panel would be able to keep up with full-rate production. That is still a lot of stations. Does anybody know how many individual panels we are talking about?

1. Door
2. Roof
3. Hood
4. Front end clip
5. Left fender
6. Right fender
7. Left fender skirt
8. Right fender skirt
9. Rear skirt
10. Left side body
11. Right side body
12. Dash
13. Interior door panel
14. Interior right side
15. Misc small panels that can be cast together and cut apart.
16. Holy crap, 4 of each of those means there would be 60 stations. If they worked two shifts, you could get away with 30 stations, I suppose... Three shifts means you could get away with just about those 15 IF they only took 3 minutes per operation...

 

[Stephen Workman]

This part speaks to me more that the rest of the conversation combined.
With the very high production rate of the Elio, any part that takes up space for hours at a time is a massive liability.
So the key resource is time, not weight.

For a composite to be manufactured at the same rate as stamped steel, you'd need 10-20 times the manufacturing station requiring space and investment for additional work stations.

My meaning:
Composite. Form, cure (10 minutes, 4 hours, I'm honestly not sure)
Stamped Steel: *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT! *STAMP* NEXT!

Actually, Crimson,
this couldn't be further from the truth. It can take multiple dies to form one particular panel - say a fender. The process of forming a fender can take up to six different die-sets. If the facility @ Shreveport had several multi-ton presses, with multiple die-set runs, left and right fenders can theoretically be formed (stamped out) during the same run (since only a left-hand door - no need for a right). It again depends upon both the press limitations and the die sets available.. Since these dies are custom made for each individual panel, there is a massive initial cost incurred in their production alone. Don't forget to take into account the cranes for moving the multi-ton rolls of cold-rolled steel into place for the shear dies. I guess the point I wish to make here, is that theoretically, stamping steel panels out one after the other seems like it would be a faster process - in my experience, it can often take much longer than the bumpers we formed from plastic pellets adjacent to the stamping presses. This doesn't even take into consideration the actual cost of all those multiple die sets, the change-over time for changing them out to make a different panel run, of the hours or days of downtime if any one of those individual dies are damaged during any multi-ton press strike. Believe me when I tell you this..a huge multinational conglomerate such as Fuji Heavy Industries (parent company of Subaru), General Motors or Mercedes can afford the steel stamping process. Fotr'the big boys', having a finished car roll off the assembly line every 54 seconds is what they demand, but a small start-up like Elio Motors would be staring at certain death if something were to go south during start-up of this new venture.
It's a lot to take into consideration. One of the thousands of hurdles a new venture of this type must plan for and overcome in order to successfully ramp-up to the projected production levels they are seeking.

 

[Ty]

Actually, Crimson,
this couldn't be further from the truth. It can take multiple dies to form one particular panel - say a fender. The process of forming a fender can take up to six different die-sets. If the facility @ Shreveport had several multi-ton presses, with multiple die-set runs, left and right fenders can theoretically be formed (stamped out) during the same run (since only a left-hand door - no need for a right). It again depends upon both the press limitations and the die sets available.. Since these dies are custom made for each individual panel, there is a massive initial cost incurred in their production alone. Don't forget to take into account the cranes for moving the multi-ton rolls of cold-rolled steel into place for the shear dies. I guess the point I wish to make here, is that theoretically, stamping steel panels out one after the other seems like it would be a faster process - in my experience, it can often take much longer than the bumpers we formed from plastic pellets adjacent to the stamping presses. This doesn't even take into consideration the actual cost of all those multiple die sets, the change-over time for changing them out to make a different panel run, of the hours or days of downtime if any one of those individual dies are damaged during any multi-ton press strike. Believe me when I tell you this..a huge multinational conglomerate such as Fuji Heavy Industries (parent company of Subaru), General Motors or Mercedes can afford the steel stamping process. Fotr'the big boys', having a finished car roll off the assembly line every 54 seconds is what they demand, but a small start-up like Elio Motors would be staring at certain death if something were to go south during start-up of this new venture.
It's a lot to take into consideration. One of the thousands of hurdles a new venture of this type must plan for and overcome in order to successfully ramp-up to the projected production levels they are seeking.

I would be surprised if Elio doesn't at least start off having someone else make composite panels for them... I'm talking about the molded plastic panels and not fiberglass. I can almost see shipments of fenders arriving, being placed on the paint line and later assembled to the Elio. It IS an assembly plant, you know.

 

[Stephen Workman]

I find that my vehicles, which have seen plenty of snow and road salt (Minot, Nd, Dayton, OH), I have never had any body rust. I keep them waxed though and feel the wax helps keep water from penetrating the paint and causing rust from beneath... I can't prove that is the reason my cars stay looking great but I have always parked them outside and they fare better than the people around me.

I think the waxing only helps w/ paint oxidation. It's the steel oxidation (rust) that is my concern. When you have a steel fender say, and a stone is thrown up on the underside. said stone scratches the rust preventive measures applied during the pre-paint process (whether that be sprayed on, dipped, or e-coated), what then happens is oxidation (rust) that is more often than not unseen - until major damage is already done. Unless, of course, you plan on completely disassembling your Elio a couple times a year to check for this. A plastic, polymer, or resin exterior panel eliminates this possibility. I have a 1998 Saturn SC that has no rust (or dings)on the fenders, doors, or rear quarters.The hood, roof and trunklid are a different story (due to hailstorm damage). the wheels will fall off the car before those plastic panels even need resprayed.

 

[Ty]

I think the waxing only helps w/ paint oxidation. It's the steel oxidation (rust) that is my concern. When you have a steel fender say, and a stone is thrown up on the underside. said stone scratches the rust preventive measures applied during the pre-paint process (whether that be sprayed on, dipped, or e-coated), what then happens is oxidation (rust) that is more often than not unseen - until major damage is already done. Unless, of course, you plan on completely disassembling your Elio a couple times a year to check for this. A plastic, polymer, or resin exterior panel eliminates this possibility. I have a 1998 Saturn SC that has no rust (or dings)on the fenders, doors, or rear quarters.The hood, roof and trunklid are a different story (due to hailstorm damage). the wheels will fall off the car before those plastic panels even need resprayed.

Okay. Fair enough. I was talking about the surface rust that bubbles the paint up. The underside... well, you are on your own there though I may spray some good understating or maybe even bed liner.