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- Thread starter msmith5150
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I'm no electrician, but what little I know is the difference between a lead acid charger and a lithium charger, is a lead acid charger has sensors that at about 80%, start to reduce the charging amps all the way down to a trickle charge by 100%, and continues finite.
A lithium charger charges at 100% all the way to fully charged and then shuts off.
So with care, you can charge a lithium battery with a lead acid charger to about 80%+ requiring manual supervision, but if you use a lithium charger on lead acid, you will quickly boil and damage the lead acid batteries ....
... especially if you leave it on overnight, as I found out the hard way with my electric forklift, and is why I know a little about it :-)
Hog
Elio Addict
Yes, lead acid chargers charge differently. Lithium - type chargers juggle the amps vs volts, high amps until the battery reaches almost full, then switches to low amps higher voltage for the "absorption phase". Those chargers also have built in overcharge protection and low temperature protection as you cannot charge lithium below freezing (think of your cell phone). If you do, bad things happen. Lead acid tolerates low temperatures very well, but cannot be discharged below 50% capacity without damaging it, so you always bounce between full and 50%. Overcharging lead acid will boil out your electrolyte and damage the plates, possible shorting them. Solar chargers have all the protections for all types (except lithium ion, which should not be used for solar applications, too dangerous). My charger runs my sealed lead acid batteries to 15 volts for two hours once a month for automatic desulfating. Not needed for AGM batteries though. Lithium Iron Phosphate is used for solar batteries since it is quite safe, but most ebikes use lithium ion which is quite explosive (numerous videos on this).
JohnJ
Elio Addict
I had a dream. A little 3 wheel car that said "ELIO" on the back with "Powered by Tesla" under that....
LillyMayPatterson #1685 & #5648
Elio Addict
Ya, Me Too. I've had that dream for going on two years. Wouldn't it be funny, if it were come true. I actually dreamt Elio coming out the back door of Lordstown, Ohio. Well, that got squashed. But, powered by Elon is super cool.
I'd gladly eat my hat with enthusiaum if that were to happen. It is always an extremely bold thing for an established make to try. But the closest Tesla ever came to that was a Corbin Sparrow equivlent. (see below)
Only a viable competitor could trigger Tesla into an Elio clone, IMHO. Musk will ocasionally take some bold risks, but he likes big and flashing things, not so much small and frugal. And the preceived failure of the ElecMech Solo doesn't help either.
Possibly all the other new EV sedan models coming out might trigger a bolder move for Tesla. But a success from Aptera currently has the best chance of pushing them into it. Since Musk would know that all other makers are not bold enough to do a tandem seater, he might see an advantage there.
His plan would have to somehow mitigate the fact that an Elio EV clone hurts his own EV sales less than say BMW, Audi, Toyota etc.
One line of thought that helps, if they come in to see the eCloneEV, they may just buy a Model S instead. Or buy the two bundeled together.
I would argu that he should run a few 'bundeled' programs. Just doing that makes a lot of advertising noise, and will distract from all this bad 'Twitter' controversy.
If an Elio EV had come into play in the markets, I guarentee Tesla would have been first to compete against it. (Ignoring the Solo in all that play)
All this happened within the Smart Car sales and thier competitiors. The activity in that market segment is now slowly bleeding down. It was very educational how the Smart-Car did not have any direct influance in the tandem vehicle arena. It says that the desison makers see them as totally different markets.
I will make an advanced observation. There is a new customer based forming out there. They are people in desparate need of cheap transportation from a distant suburban location where they can afford housing, but need to get to urban areas to work. It's getting to be a huge segment. These people need 100mile range and freeway speeds at a low operational and intital cost, because they have credit issues as well. Nobody is serving them in the EV market. Frankly not in the ICE market too. They can't qualify for most new-car loans of $25k or more. I have 4 grandchildren in that mess. The Solo did not serve that market. An eCloneEV with 100 mile range could.
I suppose that the Litmotors C1 now for pre-order at $32k could trigger some Tesla response, but these need to be actually on the road, and are not yet (est 2026). As odd as they are and at that price, they only reach the level of an oddity.
PS, I agree with the next post too, so double it, he won't unless forced into it.
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RSchneider
Elio Addict
Elon Musk said this:
Maybe he's not as smart as the three wheeled fans and needs to be convinced. He really hasn't done much and has little if any experience in transportation then it comes to the ground or even in flight. The three wheeled fans need to constantly badger him on why he needs to make a three wheeler or just buy a company. As we know, it's easy to tell the rich what to do with their money. I think Bill Gates was the previous one, people tried this with.
Maybe he's not as smart as the three wheeled fans and needs to be convinced. He really hasn't done much and has little if any experience in transportation then it comes to the ground or even in flight. The three wheeled fans need to constantly badger him on why he needs to make a three wheeler or just buy a company. As we know, it's easy to tell the rich what to do with their money. I think Bill Gates was the previous one, people tried this with.
RSchneider
Elio Addict
You must live in an alternate universe.
- People can live in an Urban environment. So they don't need to live super far away.
- Credit issues has to do with being irresponsible.
- Can't qualify for a $25K loan? How about just qualify for a $10K used car? We all do not need new. Plenty of used are out there. I'm guessing you can even get a used Prius for $10K. Not a pure EV but good enough.
I was once part of this new customer base and I kept my credit good and bought used. It was not perfect but it worked. Bought my first new car when I was 30. Then kept that thing for 20 years.
Well that's not quite valid accross the board. My universe does indeed exist. There are many alternate universes if you want to call it that. Maybe YOURS is the alternate.
A $10k used car can cost more than a $25k new car in monthly payments Why? Some people can't get low enough interest rates in used cars. And the length of the loan can be longer new.
Yes, I'm identifing with the crowd that drives in. Not the ones living close at hand to thier work and not the ones who get to do remote work. But those people that drive the freeways as an individual, and I'm one, we are a significant segment of the population. In many areas of the USA it's more than 50%.
And some urban environments are just too dangerous for a family with kids, which most of us have had, at least in the recent past.
And of that group, there are many that are only interested in a new car, or a newish one. Like me in my situation a few years ago, I was too poor to afford a used car and all the issues with reliabuility. I could afford (just barely) a new car payment, but could not suffer the situation if there was a mechnical break down. So an at max-2 year old car new was my only option. I could not even use the bus system because I had too many variations requiring a car in my daily activity.
The time-span where I did ride the bus was short, and took 6hours of bus time out of my day. I finally had to give up, get a viable car. Used cars sucked. Busses sucked. And my credit issues at the time had nothing to do with being irresponsible. It had to do with the cycles of the ecconomy. Which we all suffer.
No mater what, the point is, it has to be easier for all of us going forward. A cheaper new car helps both used car buyers as well as new.
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RSchneider
Elio Addict
So a $10K new three wheeler is better than a $10K used car? Let's take for example a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic. Both seat 5, both have certified safety via crash testing. Plus both will allow the next generation that decides to have kids, a place to put them with a car seat. Both have parts readily available that any shop in the US can get in 30 minutes. They are proven to be reliable. Plus reliable for many years. The garage that I take my cars to, they tell me this when it comes for a reliable vehicle that can be up to 15 years old.
Small Sedan:
Toyota Corolla
Honda Civic
Mid Size:
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord
SUV:
Rav4
CRV
I'm guessing that a three wheeler EV will not be cheaper to fix than the examples I gave (Toyota and Honda are very common brands). As you know, EV's do break down and wear out. They are not perfect. I'd believe a garage that works on everything when it comes to their suggestions. They see it all. People have choices and when it comes to a three wheeler, that's not an option for a family. Maybe for someone that's single or have no kids that live in an urban environment.