Start Stop System

[Ty]

Here's an interesting little story (from 2010 so it's a little dated). The link ===> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-micro-hybrids-are-coming/

And here is my condensed version... (emphasis and color added by me)
Get ready for the micro-hybrid - conventional cars that increase gas mileage three to eight percent by adding a few hybrid features.

The low-hanging fruit is in the automatic start-stop technology found on most hybrids. Start-stop, which costs only $300 to $400 for automakers to add, shuts down the engine at stoplights and then starts it up again when the driver lifts his left foot. If there's a hurdle to putting start-stop on conventional cars, it's in the ability of their relatively small 12-volt batteries to run accessories (especially air-conditioning) when the engine is shut off.

Valeo, which supplies start-stop systems to European automakers, estimates that urban cars spend as much as a third of their time on the road not moving. U.S.-style highway driving doesn't benefit all that much, one of the reasons for its slow adoption in the U.S.

"By 2015, auto analysts are predicting that start-stop will be, if not ubiquitous, at least very common," said Richard Brody, vice president of business development at PowerGenix. The San Diego-based battery company is developing compact, high-output nickel-zinc (NiZn) batteries that could help enable start-stop on conventional cars. The NiZn packs are a third smaller and lighter than the nickel-metal-hydride batteries in most hybrids, Brody said.

As I reported in BNET back in January, Mazda would like to introduce i-stop in the U.S., but the company is frustrated by EPA testing procedures that gives the automaker no fuel economy credit for adding it. "We're going to begin detailed discussions with the regulatory agencies and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers aimed at getting a new test procedure for the urban environment," said Robert Davis, a Mazda vice president for research and development.

It's interesting that Europe is becoming an early adopter of micro-hybrids, because Brody points out that the technology is more challenging to incorporate into diesel engines, which are much more common in Europe. "It's harder to start and stop diesels," he said. Brody also said that carmakers can create a sort of super-micro-hybrid by adding one other power-saving technology, regenerative braking. Commonplace in today's hybrids, regenerative brakes convert the energy used to slow a car into usable energy.

 

[Johnapool]

Here's an interesting little story (from 2010 so it's a little dated). The link ===> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-micro-hybrids-are-coming/

And here is my condensed version... (emphasis and color added by me)
Get ready for the micro-hybrid - conventional cars that increase gas mileage three to eight percent by adding a few hybrid features.

The low-hanging fruit is in the automatic start-stop technology found on most hybrids. Start-stop, which costs only $300 to $400 for automakers to add, shuts down the engine at stoplights and then starts it up again when the driver lifts his left foot. If there's a hurdle to putting start-stop on conventional cars, it's in the ability of their relatively small 12-volt batteries to run accessories (especially air-conditioning) when the engine is shut off.

Valeo, which supplies start-stop systems to European automakers, estimates that urban cars spend as much as a third of their time on the road not moving. U.S.-style highway driving doesn't benefit all that much, one of the reasons for its slow adoption in the U.S.

"By 2015, auto analysts are predicting that start-stop will be, if not ubiquitous, at least very common," said Richard Brody, vice president of business development at PowerGenix. The San Diego-based battery company is developing compact, high-output nickel-zinc (NiZn) batteries that could help enable start-stop on conventional cars. The NiZn packs are a third smaller and lighter than the nickel-metal-hydride batteries in most hybrids, Brody said.

As I reported in BNET back in January, Mazda would like to introduce i-stop in the U.S., but the company is frustrated by EPA testing procedures that gives the automaker no fuel economy credit for adding it. "We're going to begin detailed discussions with the regulatory agencies and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers aimed at getting a new test procedure for the urban environment," said Robert Davis, a Mazda vice president for research and development.

It's interesting that Europe is becoming an early adopter of micro-hybrids, because Brody points out that the technology is more challenging to incorporate into diesel engines, which are much more common in Europe. "It's harder to start and stop diesels," he said. Brody also said that carmakers can create a sort of super-micro-hybrid by adding one other power-saving technology, regenerative braking. Commonplace in today's hybrids, regenerative brakes convert the energy used to slow a car into usable energy.

I don't know about other cars, but the old Honda Insight's SSS is disabled when the climate control system has the heater or AC on, in the "normal" (as opposed to the "Economy") mode. If you leave it in economy mode, you can drive normally on the highways, and have the car operate the SSS somewhat normally, above 41 F. For those of us who put most of our miles on longer runs, this seems to work.
A big question about any fuel-saving scheme, is: does it increase economy enough to warrant the cost? Fuel saved over the expected life of the vehicle should exceed the cost of the device.
There are probably lots of exotic ways to get higher fuel mileage, but- what we are after here is an affordable car with longevity that is economical to own, operate, and maintain. Breath-taking prices are getting to be common place in high-tec vehicles.
I really like $6800.00......
and, just maybe, my wife won't have to use my Elio fund to bury me with before I get my Elio.....

 

[Lil4X]

Some of the problems with the more exotic batteries is their life-span, their failure mode, and their replacement cost. My big video cameras use NP-1 batteries, about 1"X 2-3/4"X 7" that contain a handful of L-Ion AA batteries to produce a nominal 12vdc. A good bit of the packaging is devoted to a printed circuit that controls battery charging and provides a display of the state of charge. Their great advantage is their light weight - hauling a big Anton-Bauer "brick" battery around all afternoon on your shoulder - attached to another 22 lbs of camera/recorder sorta defines pain. But there is a price to pay. . . .

These NP-1's have been for the past 20 years, the professional's standard of the industry. But typical of broadcast gear, they are incredibly expensive, beginning 16 years ago at nearly $500 each. Today, lesser versions are on the market for under $70, as more manufacturers got into the game -but therein lies the problem . . . are you going to trust your breaking news shoot or one-time documentary shot to a bargain-basement battery? It's kinda the same story on your car - how big a gamble are you willing to accept for a no-start on a cold, dark night in a deserted parking lot?

I've used NP-1's for years, and discovered that their usual failure mode is digital. They work - until one day they don't - no warning whatsoever. Once in a great while you'll get one that discharges rather quickly - the usual life of about 40-50 minutes falls to about 5, then nothing. It's a brick, unrecoverable. That is totally unacceptable in automotive use, where you expect something to happen under the hood when you turn the key. From full power to an expensive bookend in about a half-second, flat.

The NP-1's life span is probably it's largest liability - it's unreliable. I had one of the first set I bought last for over five years in regular service, another quit after its first outing. If you're going to need to shoot for say, two hours, being very careful to switch off power between takes - that's pretty typical of a half-day shoot - you need at least four batteries to be sure that if one or even two fail, you can squeak by. Then you keep the charger in the back end of your wagon, along with a 12v and a 110v power supply . . . just in case. None of this is practical in your car - although I have killed my car battery trying to charge a whole bank of L-ions.

I've even used lead-acid motorcycle batteries for shooting location lights, and they were just fine . . . if you don't mind wearing a web belt with a pair of lead acid batteries around your waist - and a pair of heavy-duty suspenders to keep them from dragging your pants off. I used deep-cycle lead-acid batteries in my boat, but remained aware that if I burned the anchor light all night and kept the bait pump running, I would have fully consumed one battery and risked starting the next morning on a low-voltage battery . . . 30 miles offshore. After a lot of experience with this, I installed a battery selector that would at least protect my starter battery.

There are just so many ways a battery can fail, and I'd come to believe they didn't have anything left to surprise me. Then my alternator fails. OK, AC, off; radio, off; lights, off; easy on the brakes because they'll burn the stoplights. About then you realize what an electrical appliance your car is, and you can't shut it all off. Fuel pump, ignition, and instruments are all going to consume their share of electrons, so you're playing from a dwindling deck - for just under 38 miles . . . except home is 40 miles away.

I've learned to buy a good (not the best) quality battery for my car at a reasonable price, then buy another one after a year or two rather than wait for a failure. Guarantees mean nothing, you're not going to get a significant return on a battery that fails under warranty anyway. I consider it like an oil change, one of the costs of operating the vehicle. You just know that battery's going to lie in wait to quit on you at the worst possible time . . .

 

['lio]

Here's an interesting little story (from 2010 so it's a little dated). The link ===> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-micro-hybrids-are-coming/

And here is my condensed version... (emphasis and color added by me)
Get ready for the micro-hybrid - conventional cars that increase gas mileage three to eight percent by adding a few hybrid features.

The low-hanging fruit is in the automatic start-stop technology found on most hybrids. Start-stop, which costs only $300 to $400 for automakers to add, shuts down the engine at stoplights and then starts it up again when the driver lifts his left foot. If there's a hurdle to putting start-stop on conventional cars, it's in the ability of their relatively small 12-volt batteries to run accessories (especially air-conditioning) when the engine is shut off.

Valeo, which supplies start-stop systems to European automakers, estimates that urban cars spend as much as a third of their time on the road not moving. U.S.-style highway driving doesn't benefit all that much, one of the reasons for its slow adoption in the U.S.

"By 2015, auto analysts are predicting that start-stop will be, if not ubiquitous, at least very common," said Richard Brody, vice president of business development at PowerGenix. The San Diego-based battery company is developing compact, high-output nickel-zinc (NiZn) batteries that could help enable start-stop on conventional cars. The NiZn packs are a third smaller and lighter than the nickel-metal-hydride batteries in most hybrids, Brody said.

As I reported in BNET back in January, Mazda would like to introduce i-stop in the U.S., but the company is frustrated by EPA testing procedures that gives the automaker no fuel economy credit for adding it. "We're going to begin detailed discussions with the regulatory agencies and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers aimed at getting a new test procedure for the urban environment," said Robert Davis, a Mazda vice president for research and development.

It's interesting that Europe is becoming an early adopter of micro-hybrids, because Brody points out that the technology is more challenging to incorporate into diesel engines, which are much more common in Europe. "It's harder to start and stop diesels," he said. Brody also said that carmakers can create a sort of super-micro-hybrid by adding one other power-saving technology, regenerative braking. Commonplace in today's hybrids, regenerative brakes convert the energy used to slow a car into usable energy.

That there less to be saved in highway driving is clear. Although given the fact that currently over 75% of the US population lives in urban centers [see: http://www.unicef.org/sowc2012/urbanmap/ ] and with traffic constantly increasing, the US is starting to lag behind in some areas when it comes to producing cars with the latest technology.

They could if they wanted though. In Europe, General Motors produces cars (Opel brand) that get 75mpg (combined): http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/01/20150128-corsa.html - O.k., I doubt that number a bit, it is likely only achieved with a disconnected alternator and other tricks that bring down the numbers, but still, that is an impressive mileage and the OPEL Corsa has quite a lot of interesting technology built into it!

As you point out, this happens because: in Europe GM gets rewarded by consumers and tax laws for producing very efficient vehicles, while in the US the incentives are largely missing, starting with EPA testing that doesn't reflect real world driving as well as a corporate tax system that does not reward fuel consumption savings that much.

 

[RUCRAYZE]

The key is the price of the gas. We have it really sweet here. I don't know the numbers, I'm thinking double $4.50-5.00/ gal.in The EU. When the price of gas goes up to, and stays @ 5-6, for our economy, to be able to absorb the added expense, the industry will have to make their products more attractive (efficient). We are a spoiled society, driving around in "things" that are capable of moving large families and their possessions, and then a single drive to the supermarket to buy tofu.
I take personal credit for the lower price of gas- As soon as I purchased my Insight the price dropped!
For those of you old enough to remember, going to the movies, and seeking a soda, would go to a machine in the lobby, put in the correct change, push the one of three flavors available, and a cup would drop, followed by the measured soda.-
I was the guy who either got the cup with no soda, or the soda with no cup!!!

 

['lio]

The key is the price of the gas. We have it really sweet here. I don't know the numbers, I'm thinking double $4.50-5.00/ gal.in The EU. When the price of gas goes up to, and stays @ 5-6, for our economy, to be able to absorb the added expense, the industry will have to make their products more attractive (efficient). We are a spoiled society, driving around in "things" that are capable of moving large families and their possessions, and then a single drive to the supermarket to buy tofu.
I take personal credit for the lower price of gas- As soon as I purchased my Insight the price dropped!
For those of you old enough to remember, going to the movies, and seeking a soda, would go to a machine in the lobby, put in the correct change, push the one of three flavors available, and a cup would drop, followed by the measured soda.-
I was the guy who either got the cup with no soda, or the soda with no cup!!!

A gallon of gas in the EU is closer to $6 right now. That is by design though, as the difference is largely made up by taxes which then pay for things like the German Autobahn system. Oddly enough, Europeans are by and large not repulsed by paying these high taxes, because they expect and demand the benefits that are connected to them. Europeans as a whole are also very concerned about the environment and fuel economy is not only seen in a cost of ownership way, but many people buy compact cars because they want to have a less negative impact on the environment. And I wonder what would happen if you buy a bigger car...

 

[Johnapool]

The key is the price of the gas. We have it really sweet here. I don't know the numbers, I'm thinking double $4.50-5.00/ gal.in The EU. When the price of gas goes up to, and stays @ 5-6, for our economy, to be able to absorb the added expense, the industry will have to make their products more attractive (efficient). We are a spoiled society, driving around in "things" that are capable of moving large families and their possessions, and then a single drive to the supermarket to buy tofu.
I take personal credit for the lower price of gas- As soon as I purchased my Insight the price dropped!
For those of you old enough to remember, going to the movies, and seeking a soda, would go to a machine in the lobby, put in the correct change, push the one of three flavors available, and a cup would drop, followed by the measured soda.-
I was the guy who either got the cup with no soda, or the soda with no cup!!!

Hey, RU, tell me about your Insight. Do you have a first generation?
JP

 

[RUCRAYZE]

Hey, RU, tell me about your Insight. Do you have a first generation?
JP

guess I should have mentioned it, no it's 2nd, bought it as a "used" car w/125 miles on it- buyers wife didn't like the engine going "dead" at stop lights!!!
It's been good to me 2011model, the very basic model,- milage never below 42+/- never higher than 52. I'm very happy with it, not a clue how it works!!
Here in S florida, when at a light w/ a.c. it goes off without badly affecting cabin humidity. I didn't do the technical math, but at 3k less than the Toyota which gets 5mpg more, I guessed it would be years to match the Honda (I only put about 10k/yr.

Well, it's XI:XXIV, time to turn in, tonight's snack, Butternut Squash and Pumpkin seed rice paper rolls- can't wait!!

 

[Snick]

A gallon of gas in the EU is closer to $6 right now. That is by design though, as the difference is largely made up by taxes which then pay for things like the German Autobahn system. Oddly enough, Europeans are by and large not repulsed by paying these high taxes, because they expect and demand the benefits that are connected to them. Europeans as a whole are also very concerned about the environment and fuel economy is not only seen in a cost of ownership way, but many people buy compact cars because they want to have a less negative impact on the environment. And I wonder what would happen if you buy a bigger car...

You would find it impossible or extremely difficult to park.

 

[Ty]

I don't know about other cars, but the old Honda Insight's SSS is disabled when the climate control system has the heater or AC on, in the "normal" (as opposed to the "Economy") mode. If you leave it in economy mode, you can drive normally on the highways, and have the car operate the SSS somewhat normally, above 41 F. For those of us who put most of our miles on longer runs, this seems to work.
A big question about any fuel-saving scheme, is: does it increase economy enough to warrant the cost? Fuel saved over the expected life of the vehicle should exceed the cost of the device.
There are probably lots of exotic ways to get higher fuel mileage, but- what we are after here is an affordable car with longevity that is economical to own, operate, and maintain. Breath-taking prices are getting to be common place in high-tec vehicles.
I really like $6800.00......
and, just maybe, my wife won't have to use my Elio fund to bury me with before I get my Elio.....

Right. The payback of even hybrids isn't in cost savings usually but rather in helping to reduce the amount of oil we have to import as a country. (I read that if you filled a water bottle 1/3 of the way full with oil, you'll see how much oil went into making that water bottle so maybe that is where we should be starting)

Ford says it costs about $400 to install a start/stop system in a vehicle. 5% increase in overall mileage (5%-10% is the number I see most) would take you... 84* 5% = 4.2mpg difference... $400 cost of system / $2.25 gal = 177 gallons you'd have to save to pay for the system.

if you save 5%, you'd save $2.25*.05 = $.1125 per 84 miles. $400/$.1125 = 3,555.55 times you'd have to save that $.1125 which equates to 3,555.55 * 84 miles = 298,666 miles to break even on a start/stop system. So, no. You most likely won't benefit from the system. Nor would I. But, someone in a ... no. No one will benefit. But, politicians will love hearing about it "New mandate saves drivers 5% on fuel costs. New tax immanent"