• Welcome to Elio Owners! Join today, registration is easy!

    You can register using your Google, Facebook, or Twitter account, just click here.

Start Stop System

Start/Stop system utilizing existing battery but better starter. Worth the expense?


  • Total voters
    128

'lio

Elio Addict
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
176
Reaction score
277
Location
NY
The Mazda system was set to use the alternator (not much different that the one that'll be on there already) to influence the engine to stop with all pistons in the middle of their strokes. When you lift your foot off the brake (automatic transmission), the car injects fuel in that one cylinder firing it backwards (yes, backwards) but it does so only to build pressure in another cylinder which then fires the engine back forward. There isn't enough jarring force to be different than simply starting the car in the first place as the cylinder is stopped before it fires. Once that cylinder fires, the engine runs like normal. There is no heavy duty battery nor any additional equipment. The changes are all software related. The drawback to NOT using electric accessories is that the A/C compressor doesn't run. The fan will still blow and will remain cool for a little while but it WILL heat up eventually.

From what I've read about the current drive cycle testing, there is zero benefit of Start/Stop. That's not because it doesn't work but because the cycle doesn't include portions that would benefit from the Start/Stop system.

The Start/Stop system probably only makes sense in some cases. I hardly ever sit at idle but I do creep along for about 15 minutes waiting to get in to work... I'd much rather have a mild hybrid that could move electrically at 5mph without burning fuel. It'd only have to have a couple mile range.

But, our Canadian brethren might like to have it.
"Canada is one market in which stop-start should succeed. Toronto has a law that makes idling in boats, cars, and even buses for more than one minute per hour punishable by a fine of up to $5000."
And that reference... www.caranddriver.com/features/engine-stop-start-systems-explained-tech-dept

The Mazda system, if it works well, is fantastic and also without delay (fractions of a second).

The point you make about the drive cycle testing is good. That is one reason why US manufacturers don't care to include start and stop (they do it in Europe though), because the current test cycle won't lower the EPA ratings when the SSS is included (not much stopping). The rules in Europe have become much stricter (the testing also includes stops) and therefore the car manufacturers can lower their overall emissions and mileage cheaply with the addition of SSS. In Europe you can't drive in many areas under certain conditions unless your car meets very strict emission controls and taxes for more polluting cars are higher too. I am not that familiar with it, but in California the rules seem fairly close to what is in use in Europe.

A mild hybrid is great. That might be soon in many cars as the batteries and alternators get better every year. I also like the idea of the auto-hypermiling if your car engine can shut of when coasting along.

With the a/c that is true in some cars, but that depends on the engineering. If a/c is needed in the cabin, the motor in most systems will only shut off when a certain temperature has been reached and restart if cooling is necessary. That means of course that you save more in Canada and less in Texas, but overall you will save no matter what, just a lesser percentage. That's a little like seat-belts: if you drive very well, the benefits are lower because you are not that likely to get in an accident, but in average that belt still makes you too a lot safer.

That Canadian fine (ouch!) might have you check your start/stop technology the moment your car rolls off the lot...:) I wonder if that's enforced.
 

cortsdad2

Elio Addict
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
159
Reaction score
412
Location
SLC, Utah
Has anyone from Elio ever commented on the possibility of a start/stop system as an option, or possibly as an aftermarket solution?

I would like one for several reasons: in heavy city driving (big cities in the Northeast) it reduces fuel consumption by up to ten percent, with an estimated Elio city mileage of about 50mpg, that is an extra 5mpg, which is quite substantial and fuel economy numbers given for city driving cycles tend to be overly optimistic when compared to real life situations such as rush hour Manhattan traffic. Besides the fuel savings, the main reason why I would like a SSS is the big reduction in CO2 emissions, which is also why such systems are used extensively almost everywhere but in the United States. A possible ten percent or better reduction is significant and environmental impact was one major attraction for me when I went all in on the Elio. I don't need to drive much and often use car sharing, public transportation and bicycles, but when I drive my own vehicle, I like it to have the least environmental impact combined with a reasonable reach, purchase cost and maintenance. Even though I prefer driving cars with manual transmissions, I would buy an Elio with AMT if that would be the only way to get the start/stop option with it. Cost isn't really that much an issue for this, start/stop systems have about the price of a good heated leather seat and people spend money on wheels and radios without ever calculating the cost per year and why would one do that?

What's great too: the batteries required for start/stop systems last up to four times longer, as a rule perform better in extreme weather and under heavy loads. The batteries also deliver constant power and are leak proof and maintenance free, something lead-acid batteries aren't really all that good at. The alternators used, are very efficient (up to 80% = good for fuel economy!) and are also expected to be more reliable and longer lasting. Shutting of the engine reduces wear on engine components and leads to reduced maintenance. Idling is not really good for either the environment, nor the engines (engines are not optimized for idling, but for operating under load) and drivers in Europe have been shutting off their engines at rail crossings for decades for that reason, it's even the law in many places. Having a start/stop system also opens up the possibility of regenerative braking and other fuel saving strategies.

In Europe (according to Bosch) it is expected that by 2017, 70% of new vehicles will be equipped with start/stop systems. The systems are not that expensive anymore, for example Continental (the supplier of Elio's radio) makes a version for economy cars that is used in cheap vehicles in developing countries such as India and can be easily integrated into existing engines and their controls. The systems are very reliable and have no significant impact on drivability. In situations of anticipated high power demand, such as merging with fast traffic, the system can be easily bypassed. There is also no interference with electronic equipment, as the system constantly monitors the required load and decides if there's enough power for a/c, heating and other electric loads, a DC/DC converter usually helps with that. The same goes for braking, if the braking booster is needed, the engine will restart way before the power sinks (brake booster differential pressure sensor).

If Elio Motors can find a way to offer an option of a start/stop system I would be willing to pay much of a premium over the engine without it. Seems like a win/win: very good for the environment, more potential profit for Elio and fuel savings and reliability for me. Having the possibility for such a system would also make the Elio much more competitive in overseas markets, where the fuel economy and environmental regulations are often more advanced when compared to North America. Start/stop systems are the future of internal combustion engines and any engine without it will look very dated in a few years.
:) that info is from 2009 (see note on top of the wikipedia entry). The technology has come a long way, has gotten cheaper and is now everywhere.

AGM batteries can handle frequent starts just fine and last about four times as long as old technology lead-acid batteries. For a simple start/stop system in small cars not that many changes are required, with big engines this is more involved.

Have I driven manual cars, yes, made by: Ford, Citroën, Jaguar, Fiat, Mercedes, Opel (GM), Renault, NSU, VW, Honda, Audi, Peugeot... I think you get the point.

Why do you think BMW or Audi drivers are not outraged about the inclusion of SSS and why isn't there a revolt in Europe, with the majority of new cars (mostly manual) already being equipped with SSS? Because it is cheap, it works and you don't even really notice it is there. Yes, that goes for manual cars too. Driving with a manual gearbox and SSS is easy and you are still in control.

The technology is not complex at all, that is why it is being used in the cheapest economy boxes you can think of. Continental makes a system for the lower price segment and as you probably know, they are also supplying related technology to the Elio. Renault (Renault-Nissan is the fourth largest automotive group in the world) has started to put it in every single car they make (predominantly manual transmission engines), why do you think this is? Certainly not because it's expensive or doesn't work.

As an aside: nobody proposes to force you at gunpoint into acquiring cutting edge technology as an option and I am confident Elio will never do that. The word option also kind of entails that... If you want to drive a 20th century car made in the 21st century, the choice is all yours, as long as you can find such a car at your dealer, relax.
Did you have to bring up "guns?"
 

RUCRAYZE

Elio Addict
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
5,103
Reaction score
8,735
Location
On Vashon Island
Just a thought.........
Lets get the Elio autocycle into production before we start making changes.
If we keep pushing mandatory "nice to have" things before production starts it will never happen.
good suggestion, but just take a gander of the threads and posts, and you'll very soon discover, as we march in place to the distant beat of the EM drum, there is really NOTHING to discuss, things pick-up with a tech bulletin, interesting blog, or letter from Paul.enjoy!! lol My heart goes out to those suffering longer than I (Aug2014). My therapist tells me that my long term gratification skills need to be addressed- I've bought bikes, cars and homes, in a blink!!
This is driving me to new meds!!!
 

CompTrex

Elio Addict
Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
1,910
Reaction score
6,175
Location
Northern VA
good suggestion, but just take a gander of the threads and posts, and you'll very soon discover, as we march in place to the distant beat of the EM drum, there is really NOTHING to discuss, things pick-up with a tech bulletin, interesting blog, or letter from Paul.enjoy!! lol My heart goes out to those suffering longer than I (Aug2014). My therapist tells me that my long term gratification skills need to be addressed- I've bought bikes, cars and homes, in a blink!!
This is driving me to new meds!!!
So big day Friday, huh?

:D
 

Ty

Elio Addict
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
6,325
Reaction score
14,761
Location
Papillion, NE
The Mazda system, if it works well, is fantastic and also without delay (fractions of a second).

The point you make about the drive cycle testing is good. That is one reason why US manufacturers don't care to include start and stop (they do it in Europe though), because the current test cycle won't lower the EPA ratings when the SSS is included (not much stopping). The rules in Europe have become much stricter (the testing also includes stops) and therefore the car manufacturers can lower their overall emissions and mileage cheaply with the addition of SSS. In Europe you can't drive in many areas under certain conditions unless your car meets very strict emission controls and taxes for more polluting cars are higher too. I am not that familiar with it, but in California the rules seem fairly close to what is in use in Europe.

A mild hybrid is great. That might be soon in many cars as the batteries and alternators get better every year. I also like the idea of the auto-hypermiling if your car engine can shut of when coasting along.

With the a/c that is true in some cars, but that depends on the engineering. If a/c is needed in the cabin, the motor in most systems will only shut off when a certain temperature has been reached and restart if cooling is necessary. That means of course that you save more in Canada and less in Texas, but overall you will save no matter what, just a lesser percentage. That's a little like seat-belts: if you drive very well, the benefits are lower because you are not that likely to get in an accident, but in average that belt still makes you too a lot safer.

That Canadian fine (ouch!) might have you check your start/stop technology the moment your car rolls off the lot...:) I wonder if that's enforced.
http://golf-carts.findthebest.com/q...dimensions-of-the-E-Z-GO-Freedom-RXV-Electric

So, the golf cart I reference is 950 lbs... Here's a question...

Elio weighs about 1250. I wonder how difficult it would be (now bear with me) to change the alternator to a motor generator, and make it so the alternator could turn the motor... Now, stay with me - I know they use that set up to re-start cars. How hard would it be to have the valves stay closed so there is no compression losses (you gain from a pressurized piston being forced down but lose when you compress it again - it's a wash... except for friction) and use the MG to keep the engine turning when you stop. IF it was capable of even 10 or so horsepower, it should be enough to allow your Elio to creep along in traffic or at the drive-thru. Perhaps even if you were careful, it could almost get you up to a little speed. With this system, the transmission and all the accessories would just think the engine was running. At some pre-determined point, the fuel injectors and valves would start acting right and the engine would start running as if nothing happened.

Software could even allow you to select the ability to disable the A/C when in battery mode or to only use the motor/generator to operate when you lift your foot off the brake (extreme savings). Another, lets call it the mid setting, would keep the MG spinning the engine but keep the A/C off (mid-level savings). The final could be, well, sport. When you lift your foot off the brake, the engine starts and the motor/generator functions as a 10 hp boost for acceleration. Then, after you hit about 30 mph, it returns to normal operation.

Cost - Well, you'd have to be able to control the valves and injectors. You'd need a more robust battery or two maybe. You'd need that heavier duty motor/generator.

Even just putting the motor/generator on there and using it ONLY as an accelerator assist from a stop would be quite helpful. Hmm.... aftermarket idea?
 

'lio

Elio Addict
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
176
Reaction score
277
Location
NY
http://golf-carts.findthebest.com/q...dimensions-of-the-E-Z-GO-Freedom-RXV-Electric

So, the golf cart I reference is 950 lbs... Here's a question...

Elio weighs about 1250. I wonder how difficult it would be (now bear with me) to change the alternator to a motor generator, and make it so the alternator could turn the motor... Now, stay with me - I know they use that set up to re-start cars. How hard would it be to have the valves stay closed so there is no compression losses (you gain from a pressurized piston being forced down but lose when you compress it again - it's a wash... except for friction) and use the MG to keep the engine turning when you stop. IF it was capable of even 10 or so horsepower, it should be enough to allow your Elio to creep along in traffic or at the drive-thru. Perhaps even if you were careful, it could almost get you up to a little speed. With this system, the transmission and all the accessories would just think the engine was running. At some pre-determined point, the fuel injectors and valves would start acting right and the engine would start running as if nothing happened.

Software could even allow you to select the ability to disable the A/C when in battery mode or to only use the motor/generator to operate when you lift your foot off the brake (extreme savings). Another, lets call it the mid setting, would keep the MG spinning the engine but keep the A/C off (mid-level savings). The final could be, well, sport. When you lift your foot off the brake, the engine starts and the motor/generator functions as a 10 hp boost for acceleration. Then, after you hit about 30 mph, it returns to normal operation.

Cost - Well, you'd have to be able to control the valves and injectors. You'd need a more robust battery or two maybe. You'd need that heavier duty motor/generator.

Even just putting the motor/generator on there and using it ONLY as an accelerator assist from a stop would be quite helpful. Hmm.... aftermarket idea?

Given the light weight and the light engine of the Elio, the possibilities are huge. A battery that is able to repeatedly start a big engine could do quite some assisting in an Elio. The heavy duty motors/alternators get cheaper and better all the time. From my understanding though, a hydraulic belt tensioner is often needed and the whole set-up including the bolts and the flywheel must be set up to allow for higher forces as compared to regular starts. With the valves, I doubt that you can get them to stay closed throughout an engine cycle.
 
Top Bottom