Start Stop System

['lio]

The problem is that you are trying to force everyone to have something and pay for it to subsidize your need when they derive no benefit.
That is the exact reason for the obscene cost of cars.
........"in real life city or stop and go driving"......... Take a cab or the subway. Or move out of the city. Don't ask others to subsidize a life style which makes no sense.
In real life, most of my driving is at over 60 MPH. Usually over 70 MPH.

Nah, stronger environmental laws will eventually force you to drive around with SSS or you could switch to a more expensive electric car. Like it or not that is the future for internal combustion engines. Same reasons why your cars have a cat and we don't use leaded fuel anymore.

Personally I like the idea of driving an Elio, because among other reasons, it is low cost and low emissions, therefore (as you might have noticed if you really would have read my posts in their entirety) I was wondering if such an option will be possible or if any thought has been given to the topic in the planning stages.

SSS from a car exporters viewpoint makes just good economic sense, because if you want to sell, let's say to Europe and can't meet their Euro 5 standards or have to much NOx emissions per mile driven, guess what? Your cars don't have much chance of crossing the Atlantic. Ford and GM don't have that problem, because they don't export as much to Europe as compared to manufacturing cars in Europe itself and take a quick guess what these engines have as standard equipment?

 

['lio]

You're the one who cited the studies.
You provide the information.
Can't provide it? Don't cite it.

I could teach you how to use google...

 

['lio]

I might like it --- Only if I can switch it off when I want without stopping.

The cars I have driven with that system so far, all had an option to switch it off. Mostly a simple on/off switch on the dash. I find that most of the time it isn't really necessary to turn it off, because the system checks many sensors and prevents the engine from shutting down in many situations when you wouldn't want it.

I would not want a car without having that control either.

 

[WilliamH]

Why don't you research yourself?

Every single study has found that SSS saves an average of at least 5% in fuel and emissions with most putting the minimum savings closer to 10%. The studies come from car manufacturers, independent organisations and European government agencies among others. And that is for average drivers, as stated before, in heavy city traffic the savings are very much higher.

No "secret science" whatever that may mean... Believe in what you want, SSS will be worldwide in most cars within a few years. More stringent fuel economy mandates and emissions laws won't be met without start/stop systems and that is only one reason that manufacturers increasingly built in the systems across their range.

Incidentally,

Wiki extract........
........"On a manual transmission vehicle, stop-start is activated as follows: Stop car & depress clutch - move gear lever to neutral - release clutch - then the engine stops. The engine won't stop if the car is moving, even if the aforementioned steps are followed. The engine restarts when the clutch is depressed prior to selecting a gear to move the car. The engine may also restart if there is a demand for power from, for example, the AC system.

Since automobile accessories like compressors and water pumps have typically been designed to run on a serpentine belt on the engine, those systems must be redesigned to function properly when the engine is turned off. Typically, an electric motor is used to power these devices instead."........."

Some comments (mine)
Somehow, that doesn't make a lot of sense for a manual transmission.
(Have you ever driven a manual transmission car?)
Also, look at the added complexity. On a car that costs $6800? Kind of defeats the purpose.

Concerns from Wiki
........."Start-stop systems are heavily reliant on the battery. Testing indicates that AGM batteries diminish in their ability to support start-stop functionality over time. While alternatives exist (NiZn, Lithium-Ion, supercapacitors, PbC), virtually all automakers continue to use conventional AGM lead acid batteries."............

Some conclusions (mine)

• Wears battery out faster.
• Requires complex electro mechanical system to continue normal functions.
• Works best with automatic transmissions. (optional extra)

Caching Caching Caching $$$$$$$$
On a $6800 base price car?
Bill de Blasio can pay for the extras for you.

 

[WilliamH]

Nah, stronger environmental laws will eventually force you to drive around with SSS or you could switch to a more expensive electric car. Like it or not that is the future for internal combustion engines. Same reasons why your cars have a cat and we don't use leaded fuel anymore.

Personally I like the idea of driving an Elio, because among other reasons, it is low cost and low emissions, therefore (as you might have noticed if you really would have read my posts in their entirety) I was wondering if such an option will be possible or if any thought has been given to the topic in the planning stages.

SSS from a car exporters viewpoint makes just good economic sense, because if you want to sell, let's say to Europe and can't meet their Euro 5 standards or have to much NOx emissions per mile driven, guess what? Your cars don't have much chance of crossing the Atlantic. Ford and GM don't have that problem, because they don't export as much to Europe as compared to manufacturing cars in Europe itself and take a quick guess what these engines have as standard equipment?

The Lead was a definite health hazard. But it created problems with a lot of old engines when it was removed.
Catalytic converters force us to waste fuel by running a richer mixture so the converter can do its job. Once the government makes a rule it's tough to get rid of it. I think it was Ferrari that created a cutout to bypass the "Cat" at higher revs. It also leaned the mixture to cut fuel consumption.

 

['lio]

Incidentally,

Wiki extract........
........"On a manual transmission vehicle, stop-start is activated as follows: Stop car & depress clutch - move gear lever to neutral - release clutch - then the engine stops. The engine won't stop if the car is moving, even if the aforementioned steps are followed. The engine restarts when the clutch is depressed prior to selecting a gear to move the car. The engine may also restart if there is a demand for power from, for example, the AC system.

Since automobile accessories like compressors and water pumps have typically been designed to run on a serpentine belt on the engine, those systems must be redesigned to function properly when the engine is turned off. Typically, an electric motor is used to power these devices instead."........."

Some comments (mine)
Somehow, that doesn't make a lot of sense for a manual transmission.
(Have you ever driven a manual transmission car?)
Also, look at the added complexity. On a car that costs $6800? Kind of defeats the purpose.

Concerns from Wiki
........."Start-stop systems are heavily reliant on the battery. Testing indicates that AGM batteries diminish in their ability to support start-stop functionality over time. While alternatives exist (NiZn, Lithium-Ion, supercapacitors, PbC), virtually all automakers continue to use conventional AGM lead acid batteries."............

Some conclusions (mine)

• Wears battery out faster.
• Requires complex electro mechanical system to continue normal functions.
• Works best with automatic transmissions. (optional extra)

Caching Caching Caching $$$$$$$$
On a $6800 base price car?
Bill de Blasio can pay for the extras for you.

that info is from 2009 (see note on top of the wikipedia entry). The technology has come a long way, has gotten cheaper and is now everywhere.

AGM batteries can handle frequent starts just fine and last about four times as long as old technology lead-acid batteries. For a simple start/stop system in small cars not that many changes are required, with big engines this is more involved.

Have I driven manual cars, yes, made by: Ford, Citroën, Jaguar, Fiat, Mercedes, Opel (GM), Renault, NSU, VW, Honda, Audi, Peugeot... I think you get the point.

Why do you think BMW or Audi drivers are not outraged about the inclusion of SSS and why isn't there a revolt in Europe, with the majority of new cars (mostly manual) already being equipped with SSS? Because it is cheap, it works and you don't even really notice it is there. Yes, that goes for manual cars too. Driving with a manual gearbox and SSS is easy and you are still in control.

The technology is not complex at all, that is why it is being used in the cheapest economy boxes you can think of. Continental makes a system for the lower price segment and as you probably know, they are also supplying related technology to the Elio. Renault (Renault-Nissan is the fourth largest automotive group in the world) has started to put it in every single car they make (predominantly manual transmission engines), why do you think this is? Certainly not because it's expensive or doesn't work.

As an aside: nobody proposes to force you at gunpoint into acquiring cutting edge technology as an option and I am confident Elio will never do that. The word option also kind of entails that... If you want to drive a 20th century car made in the 21st century, the choice is all yours, as long as you can find such a car at your dealer, relax.

 

[W. WIllie]

Here is how my G1 handles the auto/stop. Yes it is a stick.

http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/enidlestop.html

Slightly different than a conventional car because of the IMA Battery/System, but you get the idea.

Willie

 

[WilliamH]

that info is from 2009 (see note on top of the wikipedia entry). The technology has come a long way, has gotten cheaper and is now everywhere.

AGM batteries can handle frequent starts just fine and last about four times as long as old technology lead-acid batteries. For a simple start/stop system in small cars not that many changes are required, with big engines this is more involved.

Have I driven manual cars, yes, made by: Ford, Citroën, Jaguar, Fiat, Mercedes, Opel (GM), Renault, NSU, VW, Honda, Audi, Peugeot... I think you get the point.

Why do you think BMW or Audi drivers are not outraged about the inclusion of SSS and why isn't there a revolt in Europe, with the majority of new cars (mostly manual) already being equipped with SSS? Because it is cheap, it works and you don't even really notice it is there. Yes, that goes for manual cars too. Driving with a manual gearbox and SSS is easy and you are still in control.

The technology is not complex at all, that is why it is being used in the cheapest economy boxes you can think of. Continental makes a system for the lower price segment and as you probably know, they are also supplying related technology to the Elio. Renault (Renault-Nissan is the fourth largest automotive group in the world) has started to put it in every single car they make (predominantly manual transmission engines), why do you think this is? Certainly not because it's expensive or doesn't work.

As an aside: nobody proposes to force you at gunpoint into acquiring cutting edge technology as an option and I am confident Elio will never do that. The word option also kind of entails that... If you want to drive a 20th century car made in the 21st century, the choice is all yours, as long as you can find such a car at your dealer, relax.

.........."Have you ever driven a manual transmission car?"..............
Is a legitimate question, not an insult.
Our "forestry engine" is an old M35A2 with a 5 speed. As "Chief" part of my job is to check out all of the drivers.
You would be amazed how many people can't drive a manual transmission car.
And of those how many don't grasp the principal of matching revs when down shifting.

The last person I knew who owned a BMW was not a nice person.
We were on strike duty in '86 and a group of the local supervisors were talking about one of our employees who was out on strike.
The company was about to pull benefits as a bargaining strategy and the employee in question was single and due within 2 or 3 weeks.
We were trying to figure out if there was some way we could help her and hoping the strike would end soon for her sake.
The female person with the BMW said "Well I hope the strike lasts longer so I can get a few more payments ahead.
So much for BMW owners.

 

[Ty]

Incidentally,

Wiki extract........
........"On a manual transmission vehicle, stop-start is activated as follows: Stop car & depress clutch - move gear lever to neutral - release clutch - then the engine stops. The engine won't stop if the car is moving, even if the aforementioned steps are followed. The engine restarts when the clutch is depressed prior to selecting a gear to move the car. The engine may also restart if there is a demand for power from, for example, the AC system.

Since automobile accessories like compressors and water pumps have typically been designed to run on a serpentine belt on the engine, those systems must be redesigned to function properly when the engine is turned off. Typically, an electric motor is used to power these devices instead."........."

Some comments (mine)
Somehow, that doesn't make a lot of sense for a manual transmission.
(Have you ever driven a manual transmission car?)
Also, look at the added complexity. On a car that costs $6800? Kind of defeats the purpose.

Concerns from Wiki
........."Start-stop systems are heavily reliant on the battery. Testing indicates that AGM batteries diminish in their ability to support start-stop functionality over time. While alternatives exist (NiZn, Lithium-Ion, supercapacitors, PbC), virtually all automakers continue to use conventional AGM lead acid batteries."............

Some conclusions (mine)

• Wears battery out faster.
• Requires complex electro mechanical system to continue normal functions.
• Works best with automatic transmissions. (optional extra)

Caching Caching Caching $$$$$$$$
On a $6800 base price car?
Bill de Blasio can pay for the extras for you.

The Mazda system was set to use the alternator (not much different that the one that'll be on there already) to influence the engine to stop with all pistons in the middle of their strokes. When you lift your foot off the brake (automatic transmission), the car injects fuel in that one cylinder firing it backwards (yes, backwards) but it does so only to build pressure in another cylinder which then fires the engine back forward. There isn't enough jarring force to be different than simply starting the car in the first place as the cylinder is stopped before it fires. Once that cylinder fires, the engine runs like normal. There is no heavy duty battery nor any additional equipment. The changes are all software related. The drawback to NOT using electric accessories is that the A/C compressor doesn't run. The fan will still blow and will remain cool for a little while but it WILL heat up eventually.

From what I've read about the current drive cycle testing, there is zero benefit of Start/Stop. That's not because it doesn't work but because the cycle doesn't include portions that would benefit from the Start/Stop system.

The Start/Stop system probably only makes sense in some cases. I hardly ever sit at idle but I do creep along for about 15 minutes waiting to get in to work... I'd much rather have a mild hybrid that could move electrically at 5mph without burning fuel. It'd only have to have a couple mile range.

But, our Canadian brethren might like to have it.
"Canada is one market in which stop-start should succeed. Toronto has a law that makes idling in boats, cars, and even buses for more than one minute per hour punishable by a fine of up to $5000."
And that reference... www.caranddriver.com/features/engine-stop-start-systems-explained-tech-dept

 

['lio]

.........."Have you ever driven a manual transmission car?"..............
Is a legitimate question, not an insult.
Our "forestry engine" is an old M35A2 with a 5 speed. As "Chief" part of my job is to check out all of the drivers.
You would be amazed how many people can't drive a manual transmission car.
And of those how many don't grasp the principal of matching revs when down shifting.

The last person I knew who owned a BMW was not a nice person.
We were on strike duty in '86 and a group of the local supervisors were talking about one of our employees who was out on strike.
The company was about to pull benefits as a bargaining strategy and the employee in question was single and due within 2 or 3 weeks.
We were trying to figure out if there was some way we could help her and hoping the strike would end soon for her sake.
The female person with the BMW said "Well I hope the strike lasts longer so I can get a few more payments ahead.
So much for BMW owners.

Understood. I did not take it as an insult and true, it seems that at least in America, stick shift drivers are slowly getting less and less. Part of a general decline in driving skills, as one can see for example with SUV drivers in the snow, sliding sideways. Well, as to BMW owners, I have to admit they come in nice and not so nice versions (personal experience).