Start Stop System

[RUCRAYZE]

Has anyone from Elio ever commented on the possibility of a start/stop system as an option, or possibly as an aftermarket solution?

Without much info when I bought my Honda Insight (2nd gen) and the engine turned off at stop sign- it was quite the surprise!! This only happens in the economy setting, and here in S florida the loss of the A.c. at long stop, makes an ( uncomfortable) difference- Regular setting engine functions as any without this. I think in the small cabin of the e it would be more pronounced,- I could see a NY traffic A C problem the same on a sweltering July day?- the only difference between your swelterings and mine- down here they last for months!!!

 

[outsydthebox]

Has anyone from Elio ever commented on the possibility of a start/stop system as an option, or possibly as an aftermarket solution?

I would like one for several reasons: in heavy city driving (big cities in the Northeast) it reduces fuel consumption by up to ten percent, with an estimated Elio city mileage of about 50mpg, that is an extra 5mpg, which is quite substantial and fuel economy numbers given for city driving cycles tend to be overly optimistic when compared to real life situations such as rush hour Manhattan traffic. Besides the fuel savings, the main reason why I would like a SSS is the big reduction in CO2 emissions, which is also why such systems are used extensively almost everywhere but in the United States. A possible ten percent or better reduction is significant and environmental impact was one major attraction for me when I went all in on the Elio. I don't need to drive much and often use car sharing, public transportation and bicycles, but when I drive my own vehicle, I like it to have the least environmental impact combined with a reasonable reach, purchase cost and maintenance. Even though I prefer driving cars with manual transmissions, I would buy an Elio with AMT if that would be the only way to get the start/stop option with it. Cost isn't really that much an issue for this, start/stop systems have about the price of a good heated leather seat and people spend money on wheels and radios without ever calculating the cost per year and why would one do that?

What's great too: the batteries required for start/stop systems last up to four times longer, as a rule perform better in extreme weather and under heavy loads. The batteries also deliver constant power and are leak proof and maintenance free, something lead-acid batteries aren't really all that good at. The alternators used, are very efficient (up to 80% = good for fuel economy!) and are also expected to be more reliable and longer lasting. Shutting of the engine reduces wear on engine components and leads to reduced maintenance. Idling is not really good for either the environment, nor the engines (engines are not optimized for idling, but for operating under load) and drivers in Europe have been shutting off their engines at rail crossings for decades for that reason, it's even the law in many places. Having a start/stop system also opens up the possibility of regenerative braking and other fuel saving strategies.

In Europe (according to Bosch) it is expected that by 2017, 70% of new vehicles will be equipped with start/stop systems. The systems are not that expensive anymore, for example Continental (the supplier of Elio's radio) makes a version for economy cars that is used in cheap vehicles in developing countries such as India and can be easily integrated into existing engines and their controls. The systems are very reliable and have no significant impact on drivability. In situations of anticipated high power demand, such as merging with fast traffic, the system can be easily bypassed. There is also no interference with electronic equipment, as the system constantly monitors the required load and decides if there's enough power for a/c, heating and other electric loads, a DC/DC converter usually helps with that. The same goes for braking, if the braking booster is needed, the engine will restart way before the power sinks (brake booster differential pressure sensor).

If Elio Motors can find a way to offer an option of a start/stop system I would be willing to pay much of a premium over the engine without it. Seems like a win/win: very good for the environment, more potential profit for Elio and fuel savings and reliability for me. Having the possibility for such a system would also make the Elio much more competitive in overseas markets, where the fuel economy and environmental regulations are often more advanced when compared to North America. Start/stop systems are the future of internal combustion engines and any engine without it will look very dated in a few years.

Hello, and welcome! It appears that you have been thinking about this for a while. This has also been discussed here. IIRC, an SSS could be implemented pretty inexpensively...Possibly a software upgrade. I have little doubt that the aftermarket will jump on anything that is profitable. A "regenerative braking system" tho, was (speculatively) priced and would not pay for itself over the life of the vehicle. I'm sure someone will jump in with the details.

 

['lio]

Recent start/stop systems account for a/c and heater use and either the a/c continues to run on battery power for a while, since the AGM batteries are much more powerful, or the engine will not shut off if it would increase the cabin temperature, or will restart if more a/c power is needed. The same goes for the heating system. The sensors are all over the car already and the SSS just needs a couple more of them, for example to monitor the battery load cycles.

 

[RUCRAYZE]

Recent start/stop systems account for a/c and heater use and either the a/c continues to run on battery power for a while, since the AGM batteries are much more powerful, or the engine will not shut off if it would increase the cabin temperature, or will restart if more a/c power is needed. The same goes for the heating system. The sensors are all over the car already and the SSS just needs a couple more of them, for example to monitor the battery load cycles.

thanks- then you get my vote!!
Welcome from The Sunshine State (born Brooklyn 20 yrs upstate, retired FLa

 

['lio]

Hello, and welcome! It appears that you have been thinking about this for a while. This has also been discussed here. IIRC, an SSS could be implemented pretty inexpensively...Possibly a software upgrade. I have little doubt that the aftermarket will jump on anything that is profitable. A "regenerative braking system" tho, was (speculatively) priced and would not pay for itself over the life of the vehicle. I'm sure someone will jump in with the details.

Thanks!

Usually at the least, better starters, alternators and batteries are needed as an aftermarket option when installing SSS. All not that complicated, but it would be nice to have it as a well integrated option vs having it installed by someone later.The regenerative braking runs via the alternator which produces more output when possible during braking, to use the stored energy when starting up. Not that expensive and the technology is rather simple compared to what's going on in other systems of the engine. Basically just a better starter that provides more power when cranking the enngine, coupled with a battery that is capable of more intense load cycles and an alternator that is more 21st century.

I haven't really been thinking about this for too long, but realizing that the whole world, with the possible exception of the US, is switching over to start/stop systems made me reconsider what value it might have for the Elio. Environmental friendliness is certainly one out of several marketing strategies for Elio and SSS fits in nicely and is a very reliable and comparatively cheap technology. It makes great sense to have this as an option for people that are drawn to fuel efficiency and low emissions. Not everyone is going to be interested in upgrading fenders and the like, some will just want the efficiency add ons.

For me personally, I couldn't care less if some feature pays for itself over the life of the vehicle, if I were to use an Elio for business that might be different though.

 

[RKing]

The systems have been out quite a while and are somewhat proven. There is the system that uses the alternator as a motor to restart the engine as you are accelerating from a stop. They work but still seem very strange to me, not really intrusive just different. The only real impact to a standard engine is a different front main bearing to support the crank better on alternator startup and a place to hide the batterys. Obviously the alternator is much larger/stronger and a more robust accessory belt is needed. Cannot see why the IAV triple woul not adapt easily.Another version ,cheap, is just to stop the engine and restart with the starter motor. I have never seen one of these or driven one so ?????
For my own use it would not be something I want to pay for, or have on my Elio. I do not have city traffic to deal with and do not want the complexity,cost, or weight added. BUT, it would be a very good update for year 2. (Disclaimer,Yes I have built this type powertrain)
More reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAS_Hybrid

 

[BlioKart]

Eventually I can see Elio with some sort of start stop system. I still think Mazda's i-stop version is the better of the ones i have seen.

 

[RKing]

Eventually I can see Elio with some sort of start stop system. I still think Mazda's i-stop version is the better of the ones i have seen.

interesting system, I like not adding "stuff", just more software. Software ,once really debugged, does no "break". Could thta "idea" be pattented?????

 

[W. WIllie]

The start/stop systems are great on a few specific vehicles. The Mazda one works because of the direct injection system. Most require an EXTRA battery, hence cost and weight is increased.The Hbrids work the best but they also have a very LARGE battery for the Hybrid section.

I would vote for a "LEAN BURN" system as used in the G1 Insight.

Most vehicles idle around an AF ratio of 14.7 to 1.
With lean burn you would be running around 17-1 and a max of 22.4-1 ratio.
It is actuated under a low rpm, light load situation and is not constant, It WILL increase your mpg in the neighborhood of 20%.
From what I have seen, idle stop is good for around 10% gain.
Willie

 

[BlioKart]

The start/stop systems are great on a few specific vehicles. The Mazda one works because of the direct injection system. Most require an EXTRA battery, hence cost and weight is increased.The Hbrids work the best but they also have a very LARGE battery for the Hybrid section.

I would vote for a "LEAN BURN" system as used in the G1 Insight.

Most vehicles idle around an AF ratio of 14.7 to 1.
With lean burn you would be running around 17-1 and a max of 22.4-1 ratio.
It is actuated under a low rpm, light load situation and is not constant, It WILL increase your mpg in the neighborhood of 20%.
From what I have seen, idle stop is good for around 10% gain.
Willie

yea a Honda Vx or Hx lean burn system would be better for highway miles. now put them together now your cooking with gas