Start Stop System

[WilliamH]

Interesting article:

By 2017, under 50% of new cars will use conventional gas engines
"The biggest fuel economy game-changer in the coming decade is stop/start technology"

I liked
.........."Instead, Navigant considers practically any technology beyond old-school, naturally aspirated power to be outside its narrowly defined traditional category."............
Guess that means my 2011 F150 3.5L EcoBoost falls outside of " traditional ".

 

['lio]

A

OK! lets try this again.
It's a diesel.
Diesel has a higher energy density than gas.
It doesn't say combined mileage anyplace in the link.
Not just S/S. Also has braking energy recuperation. Not even sure what all that implies.
And price with 5 sp manual about $23,000 or 3 Elios.
Lets not say England. As one of our British posters has pointed out, it needs head light relocation to meet British MOT.
So lets say it is not a valid comparison.
Incidentally, what is the price / gal for diesel in Europe as compared to regular (ethanol adulterated) gas. I know premium gas is cheaper than diesel here. (Texas)
The last time I was on the east coast (7/2014) I don't think I saw a Diesel pump.
At some point you have to look at comps on price as well as functionality.

Again, as I have repeatedly pointed out my driving is about 70% at over 70MPH so stop trying to sell me on Windows 8 features / benefits when I need multi user / multi tasking back end server. I moved away from the rat race around NY 15 years ago when I retired from AT&T / Bell Labs on a VRIP.

Yes, selling overseas will require meeting their standards. But you have to have a domestic base before you expand.

And I still think most major cities remind me of ant farms. Of course our covenants don't allow property to be sub divided to less than 50 acres.
If you drive in Midtown NY you have my sympathies. I think the last time I was in NY was in '87 or '88 and that was as a management witness in a national level grievance.

A) I live on the East Coast and several people I know drive diesel cars, as do heavy trucks here of course, so getting fuel is easy.
B) 75mpg (combined) was meant to read: (combined?), I tend to think no, not with that amount of engine power.
C) The Corsa isn't a British car: it is manufactured by Opel (a GM brand) in Germany and sold rebadged as a Vauxhall, across the Channel.
D) Diesel in Europe is usually cheaper than regular fuel.
C) Diesel cars are great. My personal favorites that I owned were: a straight-five Mercedes-Benz W123 300D and a Citroën CX 2.5 liter diesel (what a car!)
D) Where is this going?

 

[Johnapool]

Above and beyond all the technology, I believe the ultimate "game-changer" will be when enough people are willing to give up their gas-guzzling high horsepower heavy vehicles. If even 1/10th of the 375 million gallons of gasoline we burn daily here in the US was saved it would be tremendous.
Perhaps the psychologists can help us save fuel.....

 

[CheeseheadEarl]

I support optional SS systems. I will not pay for one, and be miffed if I have to pay for one as a stock item.

I drive 42 miles to work, 50 minutes on a bad day. 3 stop signs - if I'm unlucky I will sit at all of them for less than a minute combined. 4 stop lights, the longest cycle (timed) is 45 seconds if I stop on yellow. Worst case, 3 more stopped minutes (very generous).

4 minutes of not wasting fuel (I get it, I get 0 mpg while not moving) Give me a BSFC map showing idle fuel use and I can figure the cost of that sitting, but I GAR - UN - TEE that saving fuel while under power is far more important to me than the 16 hours per year of idling are. My 1940s Farmall tractor with a 260CI (4.3 L for you metric types) gas motor will run on just over a gallon per hour @ 1200 rpm (governed top speed) on a light load. .9L Elio SHOULD be a quarter of that, easily, at idle. That's 16 gallons a year, 80 bucks @ $5.

If it works for you, great. Just don't saddle me with it. That's a big part of why Elio appeals to me, just because lots of people want (insert option that's standard on most cars these days here), doesn't mean I want it, or should have to buy it to get the car.

 

[BlioKart]

I support optional SS systems. I will not pay for one, and be miffed if I have to pay for one as a stock item.

I drive 42 miles to work, 50 minutes on a bad day. 3 stop signs - if I'm unlucky I will sit at all of them for less than a minute combined. 4 stop lights, the longest cycle (timed) is 45 seconds if I stop on yellow. Worst case, 3 more stopped minutes (very generous).

4 minutes of not wasting fuel (I get it, I get 0 mpg while not moving) Give me a BSFC map showing idle fuel use and I can figure the cost of that sitting, but I GAR - UN - TEE that saving fuel while under power is far more important to me than the 16 hours per year of idling are. My 1940s Farmall tractor with a 260CI (4.3 L for you metric types) gas motor will run on just over a gallon per hour @ 1200 rpm (governed top speed) on a light load. .9L Elio SHOULD be a quarter of that, easily, at idle. That's 16 gallons a year, 80 bucks @ $5.

If it works for you, great. Just don't saddle me with it. That's a big part of why Elio appeals to me, just because lots of people want (insert option that's standard on most cars these days here), doesn't mean I want it, or should have to buy it to get the car.

If it was ever offered it would probably be optional. Paul Elio is really hell bent on not having the package system which I appreciate. If its not too much I would add it.

 

[WilliamH]

A


A) I live on the East Coast and several people I know drive diesel cars, as do heavy trucks here of course, so getting fuel is easy.
B) 75mpg (combined) was meant to read: (combined?), I tend to think no, not with that amount of engine power.
C) The Corsa isn't a British car: it is manufactured by Opel (a GM brand) in Germany and sold rebadged as a Vauxhall, across the Channel.
D) Diesel in Europe is usually cheaper than regular fuel.
C) Diesel cars are great. My personal favorites that I owned were: a straight-five Mercedes-Benz W123 300D and a Citroën CX 2.5 liter diesel (what a car!)
D) Where is this going?

You are trying to force a solution on people who don't need it or want it.
It isn't that we are necessarily against it.

I support optional SS systems. I will not pay for one, and be miffed if I have to pay for one as a stock item.

I drive 42 miles to work, 50 minutes on a bad day. 3 stop signs - if I'm unlucky I will sit at all of them for less than a minute combined. 4 stop lights, the longest cycle (timed) is 45 seconds if I stop on yellow. Worst case, 3 more stopped minutes (very generous).

4 minutes of not wasting fuel (I get it, I get 0 mpg while not moving) Give me a BSFC map showing idle fuel use and I can figure the cost of that sitting, but I GAR - UN - TEE that saving fuel while under power is far more important to me than the 16 hours per year of idling are. My 1940s Farmall tractor with a 260CI (4.3 L for you metric types) gas motor will run on just over a gallon per hour @ 1200 rpm (governed top speed) on a light load. .9L Elio SHOULD be a quarter of that, easily, at idle. That's 16 gallons a year, 80 bucks @ $5.

If it works for you, great. Just don't saddle me with it. That's a big part of why Elio appeals to me, just because lots of people want (insert option that's standard on most cars these days here), doesn't mean I want it, or should have to buy it to get the car.

Just like being forced to get an automatic transmission. Didn't really want or need it, don't get much benefit from it, but couldn't buy an F150 without it.

 

[Ty]

The nearest traffic light from here is at least 50 miles away. Why would I want anything that cuts the engine at a light?

You might not. Many who will use the Elio to commute back and forth to work will. It would be a nice option for those who would use it. For those who either disable such systems or who don't plan on stopping at many lights or drive thrus or traffic, it doesn't make much sense at all.

 

[WilliamH]

You might not. Many who will use the Elio to commute back and forth to work will. It would be a nice option for those who would use it. For those who either disable such systems or who don't plan on stopping at many lights or drive thrus or traffic, it doesn't make much sense at all.

Not saying S/S shouldn't be put in at some point.
But now isn't the point.
Incidentally, what impact would / will it have on the transmission?
I looked at how it was supposed to work on a manual and quoted "wiki", at which point " 'lio " got all upset and said it was out of date.
It doesn't really appear to be, but ............
(some of the latest updates were relating to 2015 model year vehicles.)
wiki extract
......."On a manual transmission vehicle, stop-start is activated as follows: Stop car & depress clutch - move gear lever to neutral - release clutch - then the engine stops. The engine won't stop if the car is moving, even if the aforementioned steps are followed. The engine restarts when the clutch is depressed prior to selecting a gear to move the car. The engine may also restart if there is a demand for power from, for example, the AC system.

Since automobile accessories like compressors and water pumps have typically been designed to run on a serpentine belt on the engine, those systems must be redesigned to function properly when the engine is turned off. Typically, an electric motor is used to power these devices instead."...............

Definitely sounds like some logic would be needed for an AMT transmission and some special handling on a full manual transmission. Looking like there might be more expenses than those indicated in an ideal world.

 

[Johnapool]

From this website: http://www.aa1car.com/library/stop-start_systems.htm

Why the Use of Stop-Start Systems is Growing
Stop-Start technology has been around for nearly a decade on hybrid vehicles such as the Toyota Prius. In fact, Stop-Start technology is one of the features of all hybrid vehicles. This includes "full hybrid" vehicles like the Prius and Ford Escape hybrid that can use their high voltage battery and electric motor to drive the vehicle in electric mode only under certain conditions, and "mild hybrid" vehicles that only use their high voltage battery for automatic engine Stop-Start and to boost engine performance when accelerating.

Some examples of the latter approach include the Honda Insight, Accord and Civic hybrids, Saturn VUE hybrid, Saturn Aura Green Line, Chevy Malibu ECO hybrid, Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon hybrids, and the 2013 Buick LaCrosse with eAssist.

How STOP-START Works
The engine management system monitors engine speed, temperature and load as well as vehicle speed, the positions of the brake and accelerator pedals, and the position of the transmission gear selector so it knows when the vehicle is moving and when it is stopped. It may also look at accessory electrical loads on the engine (headlights, wipers, state of battery charge, etc.), and A/C cooling requirements so decide if and when to shut the engine off when the vehicle stops moving.

With most Stop-Start systems, the engine will shut off after the vehicle has been motionless for a few seconds if the transmission is in drive and the driver is holding their foot on the brake pedal and the accessory loads on the engine (such as A/C) are minimal. The Stop-Start system will then automatically restart the engine when the driver lifts their foot off the brake pedal and/or presses down on the accelerator. The restart is supposed to be instantaneous and seamless, though there may be a slight lag in some situations.

With full hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prius, the engine does not restart immediately. The electric motors inside the transmission (there are two) start the vehicle moving. When a certain combination of speed and load are reached, one of the electric motors shifts its output torque back to the flywheel to crank and start the engine. The engine then takes over the job of driving the vehicle (and recharging the high voltage hybrid battery).

 

[Ty]

Not saying S/S shouldn't be put in at some point.
But now isn't the point.
Incidentally, what impact would / will it have on the transmission?
I looked at how it was supposed to work on a manual and quoted "wiki", at which point " 'lio " got all upset and said it was out of date.
It doesn't really appear to be, but ............
(some of the latest updates were relating to 2015 model year vehicles.)
wiki extract
......."On a manual transmission vehicle, stop-start is activated as follows: Stop car & depress clutch - move gear lever to neutral - release clutch - then the engine stops. The engine won't stop if the car is moving, even if the aforementioned steps are followed. The engine restarts when the clutch is depressed prior to selecting a gear to move the car. The engine may also restart if there is a demand for power from, for example, the AC system.

Since automobile accessories like compressors and water pumps have typically been designed to run on a serpentine belt on the engine, those systems must be redesigned to function properly when the engine is turned off. Typically, an electric motor is used to power these devices instead."...............

Definitely sounds like some logic would be needed for an AMT transmission and some special handling on a full manual transmission. Looking like there might be more expenses than those indicated in an ideal world.

I wonder... The AC compressor has a clutched pulley so the AC can be disconnected from the engine basically, right? What if... Follow me here... the main pulley off the engine were also clutched and you had a motor/generator instead of an alternator? You wouldn't have to have special accessories. They could all work just as if the engine were turning.

You approach a stop and as your car slows (detected easily through software... shoot, my phone and my $12 OBD II can do it) below 5 mph, the engine pulley clutch disengages, the Motor/Generator (MG) kicks on to keep everything turning at an acceptable speed - AC, water pump, power steering, etc.
When you lift your foot off the brake, the engine pulley reengages which gets the engine spinning - adding fuel and spark will make it start right up..

The expense to this would be software that can sense slowing and brake pressed, the MG which is controllable by the software, and the clutched pully on the front of the engine.

That's all for an automatic. I still don't like that whole manual transmission set up. I don't shift my car into neutral at red lights or in traffic... ever. I guess I could learn though.