Start Stop System

[WilliamH]

I wonder... The AC compressor has a clutched pulley so the AC can be disconnected from the engine basically, right? What if... Follow me here... the main pulley off the engine were also clutched and you had a motor/generator instead of an alternator? You wouldn't have to have special accessories. They could all work just as if the engine were turning.

You approach a stop and as your car slows (detected easily through software... shoot, my phone and my $12 OBD II can do it) below 5 mph, the engine pulley clutch disengages, the Motor/Generator (MG) kicks on to keep everything turning at an acceptable speed - AC, water pump, power steering, etc.
When you lift your foot off the brake, the engine pulley reengages which gets the engine spinning - adding fuel and spark will make it start right up..

The expense to this would be software that can sense slowing and brake pressed, the MG which is controllable by the software, and the clutched pully on the front of the engine.

That's all for an automatic. I still don't like that whole manual transmission set up. I don't shift my car into neutral at red lights or in traffic... ever. I guess I could learn though.

Sounds like it might do it. I'm just thinking of some of the horrible construction zones out in the interstates.
But, Oh well. It isn't a perfect world and as long as there is a manual kill switch.....
Last summer between Cincinnati and Louisville, between Louisville and Nashville, and between Dallas and Austin.

 

['lio]

Not saying S/S shouldn't be put in at some point.
But now isn't the point.
Incidentally, what impact would / will it have on the transmission?
I looked at how it was supposed to work on a manual and quoted "wiki", at which point " 'lio " got all upset and said it was out of date.
It doesn't really appear to be, but ............
(some of the latest updates were relating to 2015 model year vehicles.)
wiki extract
......."On a manual transmission vehicle, stop-start is activated as follows: Stop car & depress clutch - move gear lever to neutral - release clutch - then the engine stops. The engine won't stop if the car is moving, even if the aforementioned steps are followed. The engine restarts when the clutch is depressed prior to selecting a gear to move the car. The engine may also restart if there is a demand for power from, for example, the AC system.

Since automobile accessories like compressors and water pumps have typically been designed to run on a serpentine belt on the engine, those systems must be redesigned to function properly when the engine is turned off. Typically, an electric motor is used to power these devices instead."...............

Definitely sounds like some logic would be needed for an AMT transmission and some special handling on a full manual transmission. Looking like there might be more expenses than those indicated in an ideal world.

You quote the precise parts of the Wikipedia article that are dated. Yes, a start/stop system can shut off an engine while a car is moving, even with a manual transmission, quite a few systems do that. At the risk of repeating myself: this isn't current info.

Impact of SSS on the transmission: none whatsoever as far as I know. You wouldn't want to restart an engine with a transmission in gear, that's what neutral or your clutch is for. Some designs might have a some impact on clutch longevity in manual transmissions. Not all that significant though; Europeans often shut off the engine manually at red lights (some lights even have indicators telling you the remaining time before you should turn on your engine again), I have never heard of concerns that the clutch wears out. Of course if one doesn't know how to shift...

An electric motor to power the a/c compressor can be used, although many systems, especially the cheap ones for low priced engines and compact cars, don't do that.

When you shut off your engine at the end of a trip, is the serpentine belt running? Ah, thought so... Unless your pumps on the car are electric, they simply will shut off when the engine is turned off. Many recent cars have electric pumps to reduce losses, in that case there is absolutely no issue either, with an upgraded battery all electric systems can continue to run just as they would while the engine is powered. Also a bit unlikely for heat to increase when an engine isn't operating, no? If engine power is necessary to brake, heat or cool, what will happen? Nothing! Yes that's right with a start/stop system the engine will not shut-off under when the engine is needed for any of these functions. It's simply like your wipers, light rain = intermittent operation, if that doesn't make sense, they just keep wiping.

The logic needed to operate a SSS is the same that operates any modern engine, it's the Engine Control Unit and guess what: it comes with your car, you couldn't even order an Elio without one. The "special handling" with start/stop systems is, depressing the clutch and shifting to neutral, something you do anyway while waiting for a red-light, LOL, unless you have a better technique... If you don't want the SSS to kick in in many start/stop systems, you can leave the transmission in first gear (while the clutch remains depressed) and voilà: full control. It could not be easier.

Now, help me to understand why you get riled up about an OPTION. Option, as in: no cost or consequences to you unless YOU chose to buy it. Even (the horror!) should you find yourself in a car with start/stop system: it is only your desire (or lack thereof) to save fuel or to benefit the environment that can make you use it or switch it off. Nothing else can or will. And remember my initial question was if anyone at Elio Motors has ever mentioned a start/stop system possibility as an add-on or retro-fit. Yes, that means optional add-on, unless you perceive your consciousness forcing you behave in environmentally sound ways as being forced upon you.

This is getting rather repetitive...

 

['lio]

From this website: http://www.aa1car.com/library/stop-start_systems.htm

Why the Use of Stop-Start Systems is Growing
Stop-Start technology has been around for nearly a decade on hybrid vehicles such as the Toyota Prius. In fact, Stop-Start technology is one of the features of all hybrid vehicles. This includes "full hybrid" vehicles like the Prius and Ford Escape hybrid that can use their high voltage battery and electric motor to drive the vehicle in electric mode only under certain conditions, and "mild hybrid" vehicles that only use their high voltage battery for automatic engine Stop-Start and to boost engine performance when accelerating.

Some examples of the latter approach include the Honda Insight, Accord and Civic hybrids, Saturn VUE hybrid, Saturn Aura Green Line, Chevy Malibu ECO hybrid, Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon hybrids, and the 2013 Buick LaCrosse with eAssist.

How STOP-START Works
The engine management system monitors engine speed, temperature and load as well as vehicle speed, the positions of the brake and accelerator pedals, and the position of the transmission gear selector so it knows when the vehicle is moving and when it is stopped. It may also look at accessory electrical loads on the engine (headlights, wipers, state of battery charge, etc.), and A/C cooling requirements so decide if and when to shut the engine off when the vehicle stops moving.

With most Stop-Start systems, the engine will shut off after the vehicle has been motionless for a few seconds if the transmission is in drive and the driver is holding their foot on the brake pedal and the accessory loads on the engine (such as A/C) are minimal. The Stop-Start system will then automatically restart the engine when the driver lifts their foot off the brake pedal and/or presses down on the accelerator. The restart is supposed to be instantaneous and seamless, though there may be a slight lag in some situations.

With full hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prius, the engine does not restart immediately. The electric motors inside the transmission (there are two) start the vehicle moving. When a certain combination of speed and load are reached, one of the electric motors shifts its output torque back to the flywheel to crank and start the engine. The engine then takes over the job of driving the vehicle (and recharging the high voltage hybrid battery).

That's sums it up nicely.

 

['lio]

Above and beyond all the technology, I believe the ultimate "game-changer" will be when enough people are willing to give up their gas-guzzling high horsepower heavy vehicles. If even 1/10th of the 375 million gallons of gasoline we burn daily here in the US was saved it would be tremendous.
Perhaps the psychologists can help us save fuel.....

Good point! From my viewpoint it looks like we are approaching this game changing moment. Why are people buying these cars with the oversized engines anyway? Unless you need to haul trailers or heavy onboard loads it makes absolutely no sense, except perhaps if you do it because the amount horsepower gives you pleasure. The high powered cars also aren't any safer, as far as I know, developed countries where the cars are smaller, have lower accident rates. And there I think Paul Elio is seeing a change coming, many younger people in urban and suburban areas don't want to drive anymore (I read that several times over the past few years), especially not with cars that are way to big for the task. Reminds me of the GEO Metro I had, I never found myself in a situation where I felt that the car was underpowered. It was a pleasure to drive.

 

[WilliamH]

You quote the precise parts of the Wikipedia article that are dated. Yes, a start/stop system can shut off an engine while a car is moving, even with a manual transmission, quite a few systems do that. At the risk of repeating myself: this isn't current info.

Impact of SSS on the transmission: none whatsoever as far as I know. You wouldn't want to restart an engine with a transmission in gear, that's what neutral or your clutch is for. Some designs might have a some impact on clutch longevity in manual transmissions. Not all that significant though; Europeans often shut off the engine manually at red lights (some lights even have indicators telling you the remaining time before you should turn on your engine again), I have never heard of concerns that the clutch wears out. Of course if one doesn't know how to shift...

An electric motor to power the a/c compressor can be used, although many systems, especially the cheap ones for low priced engines and compact cars, don't do that.

When you shut off your engine at the end of a trip, is the serpentine belt running? Ah, thought so... Unless your pumps on the car are electric, they simply will shut off when the engine is turned off. Many recent cars have electric pumps to reduce losses, in that case there is absolutely no issue either, with an upgraded battery all electric systems can continue to run just as they would while the engine is powered. Also a bit unlikely for heat to increase when an engine isn't operating, no? If engine power is necessary to brake, heat or cool, what will happen? Nothing! Yes that's right with a start/stop system the engine will not shut-off under when the engine is needed for any of these functions. It's simply like your wipers, light rain = intermittent operation, if that doesn't make sense, they just keep wiping.

The logic needed to operate a SSS is the same that operates any modern engine, it's the Engine Control Unit and guess what: it comes with your car, you couldn't even order an Elio without one. The "special handling" with start/stop systems is, depressing the clutch and shifting to neutral, something you do anyway while waiting for a red-light, LOL, unless you have a better technique... If you don't want the SSS to kick in in many start/stop systems, you can leave the transmission in first gear (while the clutch remains depressed) and voilà: full control. It could not be easier.

Now, help me to understand why you get riled up about an OPTION. Option, as in: no cost or consequences to you unless YOU chose to buy it. Even (the horror!) should you find yourself in a car with start/stop system: it is only your desire (or lack thereof) to save fuel or to benefit the environment that can make you use it or switch it off. Nothing else can or will. And remember my initial question was if anyone at Elio Motors has ever mentioned a start/stop system possibility as an add-on or retro-fit. Yes, that means optional add-on, unless you perceive your consciousness forcing you behave in environmentally sound ways as being forced upon you.

This is getting rather repetitive...

Try giving an updated explanation of S/S operation in a cheap manual transmission car.
Don't just keep saying it's dated. (that's what my generation called a "cop out".)
(Incidentally, this is the first time you pointed to that as what you think is dated.)
And no, I don't put a car in neutral at a light. At least not in the last 50 some years that I've been driving.
(That isn't the way people were taught to drive in the '50s and '60s.)
I won't waste time by digging up the number of times you have said this (S/S) will be mandatory in a few years.

 

['lio]

Try giving an updated explanation of S/S operation in a cheap manual transmission car.
Don't just keep saying it's dated. (that's what my generation called a "cop out".)
(Incidentally, this is the first time you pointed to that as what you think is dated.)
And no, I don't put a car in neutral at a light. At least not in the last 50 some years that I've been driving.
(That isn't the way people were taught to drive in the '50s and '60s.)
I won't waste time by digging up the number of times you have said this (S/S) will be mandatory in a few years.

People still drive as they were taught in the '50s? I modified my driving several times since I started (not in the '50 though), as the engines have changed tremendously, so have the cars and the traffic, as well as (my) environmental concerns.

Here's one system approach for small, cheap and manual transmission engines: http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver...ed-stop-start-module-gives-big-mpg-boost.html

No, it's not about start/stop systems becoming mandatory, it's more like building a car without them simply won't make much sense in the near future. Why do you think, even though most people in the US don't like SSS, Ford will include it in their line-up worldwide, US included?

 

[Ty]

Well, we may have to face the fact that Start/Stop may not be a choice much longer... the 2017-2025 EPA standards are amended to give credit for technology such as start/stop. I'll bet you see even fewer manual transmissions than ever before... Here's the link but the main part (from page 7) is pasted below:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/420f12051.pdf

Off-Cycle Credits - Off-cycle technologies achieve CO2 reductions that are not reflected in current test procedures. Such off-cycle technologies might include solar panels on hybrids, engine start-stop or active aerodynamics. EPA is expanding and streamlining the MYs 2012-2016 off-cycle credit provisions for demonstrating and obtaining these credits. For MYs 2014 and later, EPA is finalizing a pre-approved list of technologies and credit values. Further, manufacturers will be
7 Regulatory Announcement
able to apply for off-cycle technology credits beyond those listed (or for different credit values for the listed technologies) if they present sufficient data to EPA.

 

[WilliamH]

Well, we may have to face the fact that Start/Stop may not be a choice much longer... the 2017-2025 EPA standards are amended to give credit for technology such as start/stop. I'll bet you see even fewer manual transmissions than ever before... Here's the link but the main part (from page 7) is pasted below:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/420f12051.pdf

Off-Cycle Credits - Off-cycle technologies achieve CO2 reductions that are not reflected in current test procedures. Such off-cycle technologies might include solar panels on hybrids, engine start-stop or active aerodynamics. EPA is expanding and streamlining the MYs 2012-2016 off-cycle credit provisions for demonstrating and obtaining these credits. For MYs 2014 and later, EPA is finalizing a pre-approved list of technologies and credit values. Further, manufacturers will be
7 Regulatory Announcement
able to apply for off-cycle technology credits beyond those listed (or for different credit values for the listed technologies) if they present sufficient data to EPA.

I think what I like is on page 2.
.........."These standards will provide significant savings for consumers at the pump. Higher costs for new vehicle technology are projected to add, on average, about $1,800 for consumers who buy a new vehicle in MY 2025.".................
Lets look at that..........
Elio costs $6800
EPA crap will cost $1800 extra
So the cost of an Elio will go up over 26% from current just for EPA regulations.

I think we need a law that requires all government cars with less than three occupants to have a combined rating of at minimum, 60MPG by 2017. I can't wait to see the presidential Elio. How about the head of the EPAs Elio?
That which is sauce for the goose, she is pretty good stuff for the gander.

 

['lio]

Well, we may have to face the fact that Start/Stop may not be a choice much longer... the 2017-2025 EPA standards are amended to give credit for technology such as start/stop. I'll bet you see even fewer manual transmissions than ever before... Here's the link but the main part (from page 7) is pasted below:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/documents/420f12051.pdf

Off-Cycle Credits - Off-cycle technologies achieve CO2 reductions that are not reflected in current test procedures. Such off-cycle technologies might include solar panels on hybrids, engine start-stop or active aerodynamics. EPA is expanding and streamlining the MYs 2012-2016 off-cycle credit provisions for demonstrating and obtaining these credits. For MYs 2014 and later, EPA is finalizing a pre-approved list of technologies and credit values. Further, manufacturers will be
7 Regulatory Announcement
able to apply for off-cycle technology credits beyond those listed (or for different credit values for the listed technologies) if they present sufficient data to EPA.

Interesting! BTW: Here is an image that shows the current EU drive cycle which clearly includes starts and stops. That makes sense and chances are that the EPA test cycle will eventually change in that direction too. Giving the credits seems like a great start.

 

[Johnapool]

Here is just a little bit more of that:
"These standards will provide significant savings for consumers at the pump. Higher costs for new vehicle technology are projected to add, on average, about $1,800 for consumers who buy a new vehicle in MY 2025. Those consumers who drive their MY 2025 vehicle for its entire lifetime will save, on average, $5,700 to $7,400 (7 and 3 percent discount rates, respectively) in fuel savings, for a net lifetime savings of $3,400 to $5,000 (when compard to a vehicle meeting the MY 2016 standards). For those consumers who purchase their new MY 2025 vehicle outright, the discounted fuel savings will offset the higher vehicle cost in less than 3.5 years, and fuel savings will continue for as long as the consumer owns the vehicle."

EPA standards that require higher-mileage, cleaner-burning vehicles are NOT bunk, IMHO, but necessary to push automakers into designing constantly more efficient vehicles. Just because it is a "regulation", and/or from the EPA, does not automatically make it evil.