The Compelling Case Of Now !

[Gas-Powered Awesome]

As an automotive engineer ( in seating ) I have watch over the years the stories of how hybrid cars are going to change the world or electric cars are the true "green" way to go and they will all cost us less in the end.

While I admire your enthusiasm and agree the Elio will be a big deal, I fear it may have clouded your judgment on some points. I think when we promote it our strength must come from accurate comparisons that don't give the doubters a reason to question the facts about the Elio.

Hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and battery electric sales are not declining. They were from 2008 until 2011 most-likely due to the government-caused economic charlie-foxtrot, but surged in 2012 and 2013 nearly doubling 2011 sales in each year. I agree all-gas is the better choice, but that doesn't negate the fact that hybrid and electric vehicles are popular and demand is increasing.

Rich people buying electric and hybrid cars to improve their image is called "greenwashing". The poster child for this is Al Gore making a movie about climate change (née "global warming") while owning a gigantic energy-guzzling mansion and jetting all over the world in CO2-spewing jet aircraft to promote his movie about reducing greenhouse gases.

Income inequality has been growing for decades. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, the middle class is shrinking. All facts.

Government subsidies can work. Our entire highway system is one gigantic subsidy to the tune of about 500 Billion with a B dollars. I'd call it a raging success. it is a fact that subsidies work best in narrow circumstances where they benefit all Americans, not just a select few. The highway system: Yes. Solyndra: No! Hybrid/electric car subsidies: I don't think so.

Elio has applied for a government subsidy so you'd better hope they work. If it's a "loan" no bank will take and with low or no interest, it's a taxpayer handout. The difference in interest rate between what a bank would charge to make the loan and what the gov charges is free money, handout, subsidy, whatever you wish to call it.

Hybrids do not "do more damage to our environment then even a Hummer H2." That little myth (or big lie) has been thoroughly debunked. It is a fact that even hybrids are doing irreversible damage to the environment, but not quite as much as a Hummer. The real fact is the only "green" vehicle is no vehicle at all. If you own any vehicle powered by anything other than your own arms and legs, you are not "green".

Coal generates less than half of the electricity in the USA. It is however the biggest single source at just under half, but that ain't "most". "Renewables", meanwhile, are a rounding error of a couple or three percent. We will however continue to have cheap electricity at least for our lifetimes courtesy of the natural gas boom.

Median price paid for F-150 is about $36,000 right now.

"More supply with less demand": Unfortunately, no, that's not how it works. Look up Jevons Paradox: Higher efficiency paradoxically leads to higher consumption. The guy came up with the theory in 1865 and it's been well-tested since then. Gasoline is a prime example: Vehicle fuel efficiency has been steadily increasing for the last 30+ years, but today we use more gasoline than we ever have. Q.E.D.

Finally, I think you've hit the nail on the head that the Elio is a great idea with a great future because of it's simplicity, affordability, and fuel economy. Looking forward to mine.

 

[ross]

As an automotive engineer ( in seating ) I have watch over the years the stories of how hybrid cars are going to change the world or electric cars are the true "green" way to go and they will all cost us less in the end. They tell us to embrace the change and foretell of how they will continue to increase in demand and popularity. Well as most of you already know, none of this has come to fruition & in fact we are actually seeing a decline year over year. The majority of these fancy cars are going to people with house hold incomes well in excess of $100,000 / year for the pure novelty and spectacle of being perceived as a better person. In the mean time the average wage of the majority of Americans is sinking to new lows every year ( currently hovering under $50,000 / year ). These new high tech cars cost more then most people make a year even with heavy Government subsidies ( which by the way never work either ). The reason these high tech marvels are not going anywhere is that the math just doesn't add up and the average person figures this out very quickly, not to mention if you dig deeper you see they do more damage to our environment then even a Hummer H2 over their life span ( they are made from materials that are not easily manufactured or procured ). And NOW with the war on coal in this country ( which by the way is how most of our electricity is produced ) the magic of cheap electricity is disappearing before our very eyes. Our Government keeps mandating more and more be added to every new car, while the typical gas powered car is now over $32,000. I bet most people don't even know but back up cameras are going to be required on every new vehicle staring in 2018 ( cha-ching $$ ). I personally have not driven over any one while backing up ( like all of you I'm sure ), but everyone will be required to pay more for the very few that have. The average transaction price for a good old Ford F150 is >$40,000.

The time is perfect for Elio motors to set this industry and world on F I R E ! The fact that we will buy a brand new car for $6,800 with ZERO Government hand outs that gets a fantastic 84MPG + is crazy. So crazy that I predict demand to quickly out pace supply in the first year. Our new cars will not be some cheap piece of you know what, but a high quality vehicle made in America by our neighbors that we can all be proud of. I can see the price of gas dropping ( more supply with less demand ) with every new Elio that comes off the line further making the case for this wonderful project of hope for so many people. I cant tell you how overjoyed I am to see the organic grass roots movement behind this fantastic vehicle / idea that is Elio Motors. I have often dreamed ( as well as so many others I know ) that someone would come along and offer a low cost basic form of year round transportation that would get great fuel economy & Mr. Elio you are that person! Your time is NOW .

I still own the first new car my father ever bought, a 1956 chevy 2 door sedan, purchased when I was 2 years old. I got it in 1969 when I was a freshman in high school a year before I got my drivers license. I bought my first new car in 2007, a PT Cruiser, purchased for the sole purpose that it has a Lifetime powertrain warranty. My wife and I commute 65 miles one way, 130 miles round trip daily. The PT currently has 240,000 miles on it. It averages 24 miles per gallon. Simple math tells me it has consumed 10,000 gallons of fuel in these last seven years. At 4 dollars a gallon that is $40,000 Had I been driving an Elio instead over the course of those 240,000 miles I would have consumed 2,857 gallons at the same 4 dollars a gallon would have been $11,428. A savings of $28,572 over those same seven years. Not to mention I sure paid lot more than $6,800 for the PT. I have to keep the car because 1 it's still under warranty and 2 I'm sure you know what a PT cruiser is worth with 240,000 on it. I can hardly wait to retire the PT and commute in the Elio. Save money every time I pull into the gas pump plus I get a 25% discount every time I purchase new tires. (I only need 3)

 

[Chris F]

Having been involved with many public companies and companies in the metals and fossil fuel extraction, I have to say that self-regulation does not work in most circumstances, since it tends to decrease profits. I hear many people complain about regulations, but without them we wouldn't have clean air or water. Government regulation took lead out of paint and fuel, it took mercury our of smokestacks than ended up in our air and water. By definition, corporation's only business is to enhance stockholder value. It was cheaper to dump toxics into the sewer than to clean them up; its cheaper to dump garbage at sea (as many cities did for 50 years) than to recycle or landfill. Without government regulation you wouldn't have the 40 hour week, overtime pay, disability insurance, worker's comp, Medicare or Social Security. When I bought my first house in Jersey City, I was advised not to grow any vegetables, because there was so much lead in the soil from car exhaust. So, sorry, but I would not want to go back to toxic smog, sweatshops and lead in gas.

 

[Jambe]

Having been involved with many public companies and companies in the metals and fossil fuel extraction, I have to say that self-regulation does not work in most circumstances, since it tends to decrease profits. I hear many people complain about regulations, but without them we wouldn't have clean air or water. Government regulation took lead out of paint and fuel, it took mercury our of smokestacks than ended up in our air and water. By definition, corporation's only business is to enhance stockholder value. It was cheaper to dump toxics into the sewer than to clean them up; its cheaper to dump garbage at sea (as many cities did for 50 years) than to recycle or landfill. Without government regulation you wouldn't have the 40 hour week, overtime pay, disability insurance, worker's comp, Medicare or Social Security. When I bought my first house in Jersey City, I was advised not to grow any vegetables, because there was so much lead in the soil from car exhaust. So, sorry, but I would not want to go back to toxic smog, sweatshops and lead in gas.

It is important that the government provide services such as you mentioned. The problem is that they get on a roll and can't stop--ever more regulations.

 

[TKVancil]

While I admire your enthusiasm and agree the Elio will be a big deal, I fear it may have clouded your judgment on some points. I think when we promote it our strength must come from accurate comparisons that don't give the doubters a reason to question the facts about the Elio.

Hybrid, plug-in hybrid, and battery electric sales are not declining. They were from 2008 until 2011 most-likely due to the government-caused economic charlie-foxtrot, but surged in 2012 and 2013 nearly doubling 2011 sales in each year. I agree all-gas is the better choice, but that doesn't negate the fact that hybrid and electric vehicles are popular and demand is increasing.
From the WSJ this month: Despite a booming U.S. auto market, sales of electric and hybrid cars have stalled this year, capturing 3.6% of the market through August, slightly down from last year's 3.7% share, says research firm Edmunds.com.

Rich people buying electric and hybrid cars to improve their image is called "greenwashing". The poster child for this is Al Gore making a movie about climate change (née "global warming") while owning a gigantic energy-guzzling mansion and jetting all over the world in CO2-spewing jet aircraft to promote his movie about reducing greenhouse gases.

Income inequality has been growing for decades. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, the middle class is shrinking. All facts.

Government subsidies can work. Our entire highway system is one gigantic subsidy to the tune of about 500 Billion with a B dollars. I'd call it a raging success. it is a fact that subsidies work best in narrow circumstances where they benefit all Americans, not just a select few. The highway system: Yes. Solyndra: No! Hybrid/electric car subsidies: I don't think so.
I beg to differ, I live in Michigan and the tons of money that is thrown at our roads is a huge waste. The Government hands out our hard earned money to those who line their campaign coffers. We get junk in return or the bridge to nowhere.

Elio has applied for a government subsidy so you'd better hope they work. If it's a "loan" no bank will take and with low or no interest, it's a taxpayer handout. The difference in interest rate between what a bank would charge to make the loan and what the gov charges is free money, handout, subsidy, whatever you wish to call it.

Hybrids do not "do more damage to our environment then even a Hummer H2." That little myth (or big lie) has been thoroughly debunked. It is a fact that even hybrids are doing irreversible damage to the environment, but not quite as much as a Hummer. The real fact is the only "green" vehicle is no vehicle at all. If you own any vehicle powered by anything other than your own arms and legs, you are not "green".
How Stuff Works: Toyota admits that the production of its lightweight Prius requires more energy and emits more carbon dioxide than the production of its gas-only models. Even the vehicles powered by our arms and legs are not truly green.

Coal generates less than half of the electricity in the USA. It is however the biggest single source at just under half, but that ain't "most". "Renewables", meanwhile, are a rounding error of a couple or three percent. We will however continue to have cheap electricity at least for our lifetimes courtesy of the natural gas boom. When they win the war on coal that produces the MOST of our electricity over any other source, they will go after the next biggest source & contributor natural gas ( it too is an evil fossil fuel after all ).

Median price paid for F-150 is about $36,000 right now.
From 2013 : Edmunds says average transaction prices for large pickups, including heavy-duty models, have risen to almost $40,000, from about $31,000 in 2005. That equates to an 8 percent gain after adjusting for inflation.

"More supply with less demand": Unfortunately, no, that's not how it works. Look up Jevons Paradox: Higher efficiency paradoxically leads to higher consumption. The guy came up with the theory in 1865 and it's been well-tested since then. Gasoline is a prime example: Vehicle fuel efficiency has been steadily increasing for the last 30+ years, but today we use more gasoline than we ever have. Q.E.D.
The point is that Gas prices are falling even with the government standing in the way, making the case to buy a hybrid or electric vehicle all the worse off for anyone contemplating it as a means to save money. Domestic oil production is kicking back into high gear and the Keystone pipeline will not be stalled forever. While the Government would love for us all to pay $5 plus a gallon, it's not happening. This will continue to keep hybrid or electric cars off most peoples radar.

Finally, I think you've hit the nail on the head that the Elio is a great idea with a great future because of it's simplicity, affordability, and fuel economy. Looking forward to mine.

 

[Mike W]

As an automotive engineer ( in seating ) I have watch over the years the stories of how hybrid cars are going to change the world or electric cars are the true "green" way to go and they will all cost us less in the end. They tell us to embrace the change and foretell of how they will continue to increase in demand and popularity. Well as most of you already know, none of this has come to fruition & in fact we are actually seeing a decline year over year. The majority of these fancy cars are going to people with house hold incomes well in excess of $100,000 / year for the pure novelty and spectacle of being perceived as a better person. In the mean time the average wage of the majority of Americans is sinking to new lows every year ( currently hovering under $50,000 / year ). These new high tech cars cost more then most people make a year even with heavy Government subsidies ( which by the way never work either ). The reason these high tech marvels are not going anywhere is that the math just doesn't add up and the average person figures this out very quickly, not to mention if you dig deeper you see they do more damage to our environment then even a Hummer H2 over their life span ( they are made from materials that are not easily manufactured or procured ). And NOW with the war on coal in this country ( which by the way is how most of our electricity is produced ) the magic of cheap electricity is disappearing before our very eyes. Our Government keeps mandating more and more be added to every new car, while the typical gas powered car is now over $32,000. I bet most people don't even know but back up cameras are going to be required on every new vehicle staring in 2018 ( cha-ching $$ ). I personally have not driven over any one while backing up ( like all of you I'm sure ), but everyone will be required to pay more for the very few that have. The average transaction price for a good old Ford F150 is >$40,000.

The time is perfect for Elio motors to set this industry and world on F I R E ! The fact that we will buy a brand new car for $6,800 with ZERO Government hand outs that gets a fantastic 84MPG + is crazy. So crazy that I predict demand to quickly out pace supply in the first year. Our new cars will not be some cheap piece of you know what, but a high quality vehicle made in America by our neighbors that we can all be proud of. I can see the price of gas dropping ( more supply with less demand ) with every new Elio that comes off the line further making the case for this wonderful project of hope for so many people. I cant tell you how overjoyed I am to see the organic grass roots movement behind this fantastic vehicle / idea that is Elio Motors. I have often dreamed ( as well as so many others I know ) that someone would come along and offer a low cost basic form of year round transportation that would get great fuel economy & Mr. Elio you are that person! Your time is NOW .

I have always suspected that many of us that have been influenced by Star Trek. You know what I mean, not only a world of peace and harmony but of total environmental care. Everything is perfection due to going to the brink of extinction due to war and careless waste. We now expect this sort of technological advancement because some of us have our eye on that goal. The problem is that there is something I call "The Norm Abrams Syndrome"! Norm was the host of The New Yankee Workshop and during the course of a half hour he would create wonderful wooden furniture. The thing is it was recorded over a period of days but we all knew this in our heads but we still got bent a little out of shape because in real life it always took longer than the show! Thus the syndrome and this syndrome afflicts the modern mind. We don't work from the real to the ideal, we expect to jump directly to the ideal! Battery powered cars, solar powered cars, cars powered by compressed air, steam powered cars, all lovely ideas and ones that demand continued research but not quite ready for primetime. The Elio is one of those countless but logical steps towards an improved world. Who knows what the replacement technology for the ICE but I fear it will be a good while coming. What to do until then? Tool around in our Elios of course!

 

[Edward43]

As an automotive engineer ( in seating ) I have watch over the years the stories of how hybrid cars are going to change the world or electric cars are the true "green" way to go and they will all cost us less in the end. They tell us to embrace the change and foretell of how they will continue to increase in demand and popularity. Well as most of you already know, none of this has come to fruition & in fact we are actually seeing a decline year over year. The majority of these fancy cars are going to people with house hold incomes well in excess of $100,000 / year for the pure novelty and spectacle of being perceived as a better person. In the mean time the average wage of the majority of Americans is sinking to new lows every year ( currently hovering under $50,000 / year ). These new high tech cars cost more then most people make a year even with heavy Government subsidies ( which by the way never work either ). The reason these high tech marvels are not going anywhere is that the math just doesn't add up and the average person figures this out very quickly, not to mention if you dig deeper you see they do more damage to our environment then even a Hummer H2 over their life span ( they are made from materials that are not easily manufactured or procured ). And NOW with the war on coal in this country ( which by the way is how most of our electricity is produced ) the magic of cheap electricity is disappearing before our very eyes. Our Government keeps mandating more and more be added to every new car, while the typical gas powered car is now over $32,000. I bet most people don't even know but back up cameras are going to be required on every new vehicle staring in 2018 ( cha-ching $$ ). I personally have not driven over any one while backing up ( like all of you I'm sure ), but everyone will be required to pay more for the very few that have. The average transaction price for a good old Ford F150 is >$40,000.

The time is perfect for Elio motors to set this industry and world on F I R E ! The fact that we will buy a brand new car for $6,800 with ZERO Government hand outs that gets a fantastic 84MPG + is crazy. So crazy that I predict demand to quickly out pace supply in the first year. Our new cars will not be some cheap piece of you know what, but a high quality vehicle made in America by our neighbors that we can all be proud of. I can see the price of gas dropping ( more supply with less demand ) with every new Elio that comes off the line further making the case for this wonderful project of hope for so many people. I cant tell you how overjoyed I am to see the organic grass roots movement behind this fantastic vehicle / idea that is Elio Motors. I have often dreamed ( as well as so many others I know ) that someone would come along and offer a low cost basic form of year round transportation that would get great fuel economy & Mr. Elio you are that person! Your time is NOW .

Amen! To that. I have witnessed this folly go on for fifty years. This should set them on FIRE. The danger now is the lobbyist's that work for these non competitive players that prey on States to reduce drivers ed. And replace with electronic technology to dumb-down the driving public.

 

[Edward43]

It is important that the government provide services such as you mentioned. The problem is that they get on a roll and can't stop--ever more regulations.

Agreed. We have an over abundance of formally educated individuals that can detect any malady, but few cures, and all sorts of laws and discourse that shackle those who would be free.

 

[Chris F]

It is important that the government provide services such as you mentioned. The problem is that they get on a roll and can't stop--ever more regulations.

The problem is making the distinction. That's why we elect people. Every government regulation has costs for SOMEONE, who will complain that its unfair to them. The financial crisis of 2008 was caused by deregulation, because the financial industry got rid of restrictions on that industry, They aregued they could self-regulate and failed, badly, and we are still paying for that.

 

[JP]

I followed the rise of Tesla from development to production and I think that they have found a business model which makes electric cars cool and desirable for the mas market. While the Model S is priced as a premium luxury car, the new Model X suv will be around 60k. A few years later, Tesla will be coming out with the Model E, a 30k prius-fighter with much better battery life life than the leaf.

Electric cars are the future but only if we start to use more green energy like wind and solar. Solar roadways turn our asphalt roads into solar panels that generate electricity. You can heat them in winter so no ice builds up and you can reprogram the lines instead of painting them. They are also modular, so you can replace one piece and make the road like not. No more potholes either. Until that day, I'll drive an Elio.

Here is the video on solar roadways if anyone is interested: