The Elio Engine

[WilliamH]

Now that's not funny and I'm out of line so I apologize! My dad died from heart failure a long time ago and he also had a pacemaker that kept his old enlarged heart beating.

I took no offense.

 

[eliothegreat]

Please tell us wise one how'd you figured how much time and money it costs to test each combination, as you eloquently put it, on an EXISTING ENGINE as opposed to BUILDING AN ENGINE FROM SCRATCH? Please enlighten me o wise one!

jp, as the "some misguided person" who posted about 3 readily available engines that would have been excellent candidates for testing and evaluation, I suppose that I could post links for wh, since his google-fu seems to be extraordinarily weak. Pardon the use of wikipedia for 2 of the three, but it was easy.

Ford Duratec 1.0L triple - from current Ford of England website - 2015 Fiesta ebrochure (have to download), page 35. 80hp / 77lb-ft
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Fiesta/BrochureAndPriceLists#primaryTabs
Production 2011-current (this is the base version of the EcoBoost 1.0L)

Hyundai Kappa II 1.0L triple - 68hp / 70lb-ft cost to develop - $421M over 48 months. Worth reading the Design/Valvetrain/Crank info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Kappa_engine
Production 2008-present per wikipedia, but I think the 1.0L started a bit later than the 1.25L four.

Fiat Twin-Air 1.0L twin - 60hp / 65 lb-ft (they also have a 0.9L turbo & bi-fuel turbo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinair_engine
Production 2010-present
International Engine of the Year 2011

Three proven engines, all in production in 2012, all still in production. Paul never bothered to test any of them, or even make contact with their manufacturers. Perhaps his google-fu is as weak as wh's.

 

[JEBar]

The price point is the key issue there - how much EM was offering to pay them to do it!

Will we see our ELIO next year in our driveway?? Why not!

agree totally at the price point with the proviso the it meets the engineering requirements .... right now whatever amount EM has paid IAV has produced a single engine .... if that was the end of it, that would really be an expensive motor .... IF they get into production and IF they get are able to produce 250,000 the first year, the cost per motor will take a major fall .... over 4 years and 1,000,000 motors, the cost per engine would continue to drop .... from the way Paul has approached building EM, he appears to me to be building for the long term and I believe that's the way he should go .... I sure hope that next year we will have one parked out back .... I'm actually feeling better about the chances of that happening after reading post 21 in the thread at this link by RUCRAYZE .... EM is working in a wide range of disciplines that are critical to the project and the only way they would make this level of effort has to be based on the foreseeing them getting into production

 

[JEBar]

Three proven engines, all in production in 2012, all still in production. Paul never bothered to test any of them, or even make contact with their manufacturers. Perhaps his google-fu is as weak as wh's.

links to documentation to backup the above would be appreciated .... in addition, links proving that the motors mentioned are American made, could be provided in the numbers needed, at a cost within budget, and deliver the level of performance required ... in addition, if they can meet those qualifications, that none were considered

 

[WilliamH]

jp, as the "some misguided person" who posted about 3 readily available engines that would have been excellent candidates for testing and evaluation, I suppose that I could post links for wh, since his google-fu seems to be extraordinarily weak. Pardon the use of wikipedia for 2 of the three, but it was easy.

Ford Duratec 1.0L triple - from current Ford of England website - 2015 Fiesta ebrochure (have to download), page 35. 80hp / 77lb-ft
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Fiesta/BrochureAndPriceLists#primaryTabs
Production 2011-current (this is the base version of the EcoBoost 1.0L)

Hyundai Kappa II 1.0L triple - 68hp / 70lb-ft cost to develop - $421M over 48 months. Worth reading the Design/Valvetrain/Crank info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Kappa_engine
Production 2008-present per wikipedia, but I think the 1.0L started a bit later than the 1.25L four.

Fiat Twin-Air 1.0L twin - 60hp / 65 lb-ft (they also have a 0.9L turbo & bi-fuel turbo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinair_engine
Production 2010-present
International Engine of the Year 2011

Three proven engines, all in production in 2012, all still in production. Paul never bothered to test any of them, or even make contact with their manufacturers. Perhaps his google-fu is as weak as wh's.

That is where I take exception..........
Duratec was replaced with Ecoboost.
Hyundai Kappa II 1.0L has several versions. all changes since the spec you called out last time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinair_engine ...... I stand corrected -- still in production

And they all fail the domestic manufactured qualification.
You want to give Europeans US manufacturing jobs? That's up to you. But it's Paul's decision.

 

[Kuda]

IAV will not be supplying the engine... only the engineering and some assistance setting up the production line. Elio will be producing their own engines. "...Alongside IAV watching and then doing with IAV watching and eventually, IAV will go away and we'll build them by ourselves"

Also COMAU will do the training
, machining, & plasma spray linings...

 

[eliothegreat]

That is where I take exception..........
Duratec was replaced with Ecoboost.
Hyundai Kappa II 1.0L has several versions. all changes since the spec you called out last time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinair_engine ...... I stand corrected -- still in production

And they all fail the domestic manufactured qualification.
You want to give Europeans US manufacturing jobs? That's up to you. But it's Paul's decision.

No exception. YOU ARE WRONG. And not enough of a man to admit it and apologize. Did you even bother to read the Fiesta brochure? They are still installing the Duratec in the 2015 Fiesta (in England / Europe / elsewhere). The EcoBoost is the turbo version of the Duratec.

YOU ARE WRONG. The Kappa II is the same engine I brought up before. In production in 2012, still in production. No wonder you are confused. You can't seem to understand what you read.

More like stand corrected on all three. All in production before Paul started taking reservations in January 2013, all still in production.

You have insulted me repeatedly, but you are clueless on a wide variety of levels.

Paul isn't producing any American manufacturing jobs. Ford, Hyundai, and Fiat Chrysler all have manufacturing plants in the U.S.A. If Elio ever were to go into production, there is at least a reasonable possibility that those engines could be produced in the U.S.A. at some point in the future. If Elio had spent their funds on testing and production instead of assuaging Paul's ego, they might be in production now instead of offering excuses. Do you flag wavers really think that IAV and Comau are 100% American owned and operated? Do you really think starting operations two years earlier with an outsourced engine is really going to annoy all those factory workers? Or are they, in your delusional dreams, sitting there thinking "Boy, I'm glad to be unemployed/underemployed for another two years. I'd rather stay home than get paid to build a car with an outsourced engine."?

Get a grip on reality.

 

[JEBar]

Get a grip on reality.

just curious, since you clearly believe you know the best way to bring a product like the Elio to market, have you considered starting your own company from scratch and making it happen

 

[WilliamH]

No exception. YOU ARE WRONG. And not enough of a man to admit it and apologize. Did you even bother to read the Fiesta brochure? They are still installing the Duratec in the 2015 Fiesta (in England / Europe / elsewhere). The EcoBoost is the turbo version of the Duratec.

YOU ARE WRONG. The Kappa II is the same engine I brought up before. In production in 2012, still in production. No wonder you are confused. You can't seem to understand what you read.

More like stand corrected on all three. All in production before Paul started taking reservations in January 2013, all still in production.

You have insulted me repeatedly, but you are clueless on a wide variety of levels.

Paul isn't producing any American manufacturing jobs. Ford, Hyundai, and Fiat Chrysler all have manufacturing plants in the U.S.A. If Elio ever were to go into production, there is at least a reasonable possibility that those engines could be produced in the U.S.A. at some point in the future. If Elio had spent their funds on testing and production instead of assuaging Paul's ego, they might be in production now instead of offering excuses. Do you flag wavers really think that IAV and Comau are 100% American owned and operated? Do you really think starting operations two years earlier with an outsourced engine is really going to annoy all those factory workers? Or are they, in your delusional dreams, sitting there thinking "Boy, I'm glad to be unemployed/underemployed for another two years. I'd rather stay home than get paid to build a car with an outsourced engine."?

Get a grip on reality.

The only Duratecs listed are 1.25 and 1.6 Liter (Page 35 of UK Fiesta manual)
You may be correct on the Kappa II engine.

Why, other than your own ego, do you want imported engines in the Elio?

Does it hurt to wake up with that chip on your shoulder?

 

[dgruis]

When I started my company, Stupid-o, I followed ALL of the recommendations from the public. Sales were not as good as the public had thought, but they did design the world's first...

• First ever human-natural-gas powered
• Irritable Bowel Syndrome maximizes mpg
• 4X4 and/or Unicycle
• Hemi and/or Cummins Diesel
• Chain attachment sites to an an unlimited number of passengers in tandem.
• Elgin dash on the right side of the goggles and Normal-boring like all other cars in the left side.

So far sales have been slow, but the Stupid-o (designed by committee) costs $4999 and many brain cells.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=18&v=MCL2BmQ14WQ\