refer back to post 1 in this thread .... that post has a link where a Traction Control System is listed as a standard feature .... I can't find it mentioned on their website, starting this thread to try and see what's up
Jim
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Traction Control System
- Thread starter JEBar
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refer back to post 1 in this thread .... that post has a link where a Traction Control System is listed as a standard feature .... I can't find it mentioned on their website, starting this thread to try and see what's up
Jim
karl
Elio Addict
Yes I see the traction control listed there. Again this is a component of stability control but not the entire package. There are more and more motorcycles adding computer control packages but they are not yet required here in the US. I would welcome stability control on my Elio. A few years back coming home from a trip it was pouring rain and I noticed that there was a flickering light on the dash. It was telling me the traction control was working. Backed of a bit and the light went out.
The older systems would just brake the spinning wheel. The newer ones can cut power not just back off the throttle but cut torque by backing off the timing advance. Cool stuff
wheaters
Elio Addict
I already replied to you previous post. I told you my last two cars had electronic stability control, both were built well after 2003. My latest car is still in production today.
You seem to have the habit of jumping in to put forward your own opinion as fact, whilst totally scorning that of others, As you haven't spelled out your own driving experience or any other qualification, despite being asked, your "facts" appear to be gleaned from reading factory press releases or brochures. We'll differ and leave it at that.
Just to remind us, The OP a question about traction control, not stability control.
Smitty901
Elio Addict
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Traction and stability control are two different things. While nice in some cases Traction control that you can not turn off can be a major problem in snow.
Stability control was a major hurtle for The CanAm spider it was the biggest issue they had to over come to make it rideable.
Some type of stability control mechanical or electronic will likely be needed on the ELIO. It does have the longer length and wider stance in its favor. So movements will not be as quick.
When I rode the fist CanAm's I notice a tendency to over steer it , then to over correct at first.
Without their stability control it could have been a big issue.
Stability control was a major hurtle for The CanAm spider it was the biggest issue they had to over come to make it rideable.
Some type of stability control mechanical or electronic will likely be needed on the ELIO. It does have the longer length and wider stance in its favor. So movements will not be as quick.
When I rode the fist CanAm's I notice a tendency to over steer it , then to over correct at first.
Without their stability control it could have been a big issue.
We know direct from Elio Motors that Anti-lock Brakes (ABS), Traction Control (TCS) and Electronic Stability Control (ESC) will all be standard and made by Mando who are working on systems designed specifically for a three wheeled vehicle. This was covered in a Tech Talk from August 13, 2014.
8/13/2014 Tech Talk - How Safe is the Elio
Elio Motors Tech Talk v29
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How to Avoid Hitting the Moose? Electronic Stability Control from Mando, of Course!
Let’s face it, hitting a moose is not good for any vehicle (or the moose). So, over the years, car makers in cold-weather climates such as Sweden and Finland developed a test that entailed steering hard to the left, then steering hard back to the right to simulate avoiding a large mass – or moose – on the road. In the US we call the European “Moose Test” the Consumer Reports Avoidance Maneuver (CR Maneuver or CRAM).
Today, the Moose Test is one of the standards for testing Electronic Stability Control (ESC), one of the most important safety innovations in recent automotive history. A 2012 study from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) found that more than 2,200 lives were saved by ESC from 2008 to 2010.
Safety is such an important focus of Elio Motors’ development, that adding ESC to the vehicle was an obvious choice. Therefore, having a world-class ESC supplier is an important part of the company’s long-term success. Fortunately, Elio Motors is working with its supplier partner Mando, a recent “Supplier of the Year” recipient.
Working from its Novi, Mich., North American Research & Development Center, Mando has developed an ESC system designed specifically to work with a three-wheel vehicle and to provide safety functionality in line with today’s safest vehicles.
Just What is ESC?
Today’s ESC systems consist of Anti-lock Brake Systems (ABS), Traction Control (TCS) and Stability Control. The ESC system continuously monitors inputs from the throttle, on board sensors measuring yaw (a.k.a. “fishtailing”) lateral acceleration, longitudinal acceleration, brake status and steering angle signals to determine if the vehicle is doing what the driver intended. If the ESC system senses the vehicle’s path does not match driver intention, it will adjust engine torque and apply braking to various wheel combinations as appropriate to bring the vehicle back onto the path of the driver’s chosen path.
ESC systems use tiny electrically actuated hydraulic valves to precisely adjust brake pressure to each wheel. During an ABS event such as a wheel spin or poor traction, this precision allows the driver to slow down and stop while maintaining full steering control and maximum brake forces. The ABS system is specifically tuned for any adverse road conditions including rain, snow, ice or oil, dirt and sand patches.
Stability control uses the same precision brake pressure adjustments and can add pressure to wheels independently correcting for cases of under steer, over steer and emergency avoidance maneuvers also regardless of road surface condition. In addition to the stability control braking, the ESC unit will adjust engine torque based upon the vehicle yaw until the vehicle is stabilized and engine torque is restored back to the driver. Traction control utilizes both engine and precision brake control to maximize acceleration and stability on all surface conditions.
What does it all mean to a future Elio owner? Vehicle stability will be enhanced with one of the most important safety technologies available today. And, because Mando (An Automotive Leader of Safety and Convenience Products) has a winter testing facility in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, we’ll make sure our owners are in the best position possible to avoid any moose that happens to cross the road.
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Okay. That is a good reminder, and you are correct insofar as traction control is concerned. But, NHTSA data and hard numbers are not my opinion. I'm just lucky that my opinion is based on actual fact and experience as well. I've driven cars with and without ESC in inclement weather. In the Pacific Northwestern US blizzard of 2008, practically NO cars without it were able to get anywhere for about 4 days. At the time, I drove a FWD car without ESC. I could not make it out of my moderately-steep apartment driveway. My brother's Mazda 6 had it, and he was unstoppable in the heavy, deeply rutted ice ridges and giant heaves (no plows in the area), up or down steep hills. Our tires were both top-rated all-seasons. ESC was so ridiculously, lopsidedly dominant that I decided I had to have it for safety.
My current car has it. I ride motorcycles too. I have not had the pleasure of a 2F/1R 3 wheeler yet, but I have enough physics knowledge and education to know it will be more challenging in inclement weather with a heavy passenger in the rear. Physics doesn't bow to strongly held opinion.
wheaters
Elio Addict
That's a strange way to try to make your point. The car manufacturers tell us that ESC / ASC/ DSC is fitted to assist with cornering stability, rather than improve traction in snow. They also admit that in extremely slippery conditions, traction control may be a liability. That's probably why they provide a switch to disable it.
What you haven't provided is information on the mechanical design of the transmission of those two cars in your example. Have you considered that the Mazda might have a limited slip differential, which makes a huge difference in traction?
Last week I drove my son's BMW 120D on the motorway. Like they all seem to have (there are three in my immediate family, all built after 2003), it has traction control and DSC (and a limited slip differential, but that's not directly relevant here). I was taking it back to him after it had a clutch and flywheel change. However, it developed a DCT system fault on the way. The warning light began flashing, which was definitely not because of a loss of traction. After a few seconds, the car suffered a complete loss of power, quite dangerous on a very busy motorway, especially as I was in the outer lane. I switched off the DTC and all power was restored. This is exactly what happens if the car is driven on ice. The fault was with a corroded ABS ring on the driveshaft. It had expanded and begun to contact the sensor, causing a false signal.
The CANAM Spyder has almost double the torque of an Elio. It also has a shorter wheel base, giving it a lower polar moment of inertia, and because the riders sit on top, rather than low down as per the Elio, the (rapid!) acceleration will result in a larger amount of apparent weight shift, unloading the front wheels to a greater degree. I can well understand why the designers fitted "the full works" to it. Without traction and stability control, it would scrabble for grip and possibly suffer quite badly from torque steer, especially at low speeds when pulling away.
BTW, all seasons tyres aren't designed for snow. They are a design compromise. Fit winter tyres and you will see a very noticeable difference.
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NSTG8R
Elio Addict
QUOTE="wheaters, post: 54502, member: 1916"]That's a strange way to try to make your point. The car manufacturers tell us that ESC / ASC/ DSC is fitted to assist with cornering stability, rather than improve traction in snow. They also admit that in extremely slippery conditions, traction control may be a liability. That's probably why they provide a switch to disable it.
What you haven't provided is information on the mechanical design of the transmission of those two cars in your example. Have you considered that the Mazda might have a limited slip differential, which makes a huge difference in traction?
Last week I drove my son's BMW 120D on the motorway. Like they all seem to have (there are three in my immediate family, all built after 2003), it has traction control and DSC (and a limited slip differential, but that's not directly relevant here). I was taking it back to him after it had a clutch and flywheel change. However, it developed a DCT system fault on the way. The warning light began flashing, which was definitely not because of a loss of traction. After a few seconds, the car suffered a complete loss of power, quite dangerous on a very busy motorway, especially as I was in the outer lane. I switched off the DTC and all power was restored. This is exactly what happens if the car is driven on ice. The fault was with a corroded ABS ring on the driveshaft. It had expanded and begun to contact the sensor, causing a false signal.
The CANAM Spyder has almost double the torque of an Elio. It also has a shorter wheel base, giving it a lower polar moment of inertia, and because the riders sit on top, rather than low down as per the Elio, the (rapid!) acceleration will result in a larger amount of apparent weight shift, unloading the front wheels to a greater degree. I can well understand why the designers fitted "the full works" to it. Without traction and stability control, it would scrabble for grip and possibly suffer quite badly from torque steer, especially at low speeds when pulling away.
BTW, all seasons tyres aren't designed for snow. They are a design compromise. Fit winter tyres and you will see a very noticeable difference.[/QUOTE]
Not to nit-pick, but the Can Am Spyder, if we're talking about the same vehicle, is a rwd with two free-wheeling front tires...correct? Wouldn't be any torque steer with excessive throttle, just a roasted back tire. Never driven one. Just going by what I've seen going down the road out here.
[
What you haven't provided is information on the mechanical design of the transmission of those two cars in your example. Have you considered that the Mazda might have a limited slip differential, which makes a huge difference in traction?
Last week I drove my son's BMW 120D on the motorway. Like they all seem to have (there are three in my immediate family, all built after 2003), it has traction control and DSC (and a limited slip differential, but that's not directly relevant here). I was taking it back to him after it had a clutch and flywheel change. However, it developed a DCT system fault on the way. The warning light began flashing, which was definitely not because of a loss of traction. After a few seconds, the car suffered a complete loss of power, quite dangerous on a very busy motorway, especially as I was in the outer lane. I switched off the DTC and all power was restored. This is exactly what happens if the car is driven on ice. The fault was with a corroded ABS ring on the driveshaft. It had expanded and begun to contact the sensor, causing a false signal.
The CANAM Spyder has almost double the torque of an Elio. It also has a shorter wheel base, giving it a lower polar moment of inertia, and because the riders sit on top, rather than low down as per the Elio, the (rapid!) acceleration will result in a larger amount of apparent weight shift, unloading the front wheels to a greater degree. I can well understand why the designers fitted "the full works" to it. Without traction and stability control, it would scrabble for grip and possibly suffer quite badly from torque steer, especially at low speeds when pulling away.
BTW, all seasons tyres aren't designed for snow. They are a design compromise. Fit winter tyres and you will see a very noticeable difference.[/QUOTE]
Not to nit-pick, but the Can Am Spyder, if we're talking about the same vehicle, is a rwd with two free-wheeling front tires...correct? Wouldn't be any torque steer with excessive throttle, just a roasted back tire. Never driven one. Just going by what I've seen going down the road out here.
[
wheaters
Elio Addict
I thought they were FWD. I'm sure I've seen driveshafts to the front wheels.
If not, my apologies.
But if it is rear wheel drive, it is like the JZR, the Grinall and the Morgan. Rear wheel drive on a trike can allow the driver to get himself into big trouble if he pushes too hard, as I've mentioned before, to the point of vehicle rollover. Front wheel drive is naturally self limiting because once a front wheel becomes unloaded, drive traction is naturally reduced, which is what ASC was designed to do, artificially assisting the driver to maintain control.
If not, my apologies.
But if it is rear wheel drive, it is like the JZR, the Grinall and the Morgan. Rear wheel drive on a trike can allow the driver to get himself into big trouble if he pushes too hard, as I've mentioned before, to the point of vehicle rollover. Front wheel drive is naturally self limiting because once a front wheel becomes unloaded, drive traction is naturally reduced, which is what ASC was designed to do, artificially assisting the driver to maintain control.
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