What To Do With The Gas?

[Hog]

Agreed. For now, EV is attractive mainly due to subsidies, the problem is that at the moment, electricity is cheap. This will change, (as our present leader has stated) "the costs of electricity must necessarily skyrocket". "Home" generation is being discouraged by regulation, from numerous departments, the idea seems to be to get everyone hooked on EV, then choke them with the price of electricity. For this reason I remain very wary of the EV scene and federal regs limiting self generation. Ten years ago, I could install roof panels and sell excess back to the utility, (at wholesale prices though), now cogeneration is fought at every level, local to federal. They want you to use electricity, as long as you buy it from a 'supplier' , (and you pay even more for buying it from 'green' suppliers. All this is sticking wrenches into the cogs of supply and demand. Apparently we gave up on the idea of "if it is a good deal, it will sell itself" - to the new ACA style....

 

[johnsnownw]

Agreed. For now, EV is attractive mainly due to subsidies, the problem is that at the moment, electricity is cheap.

I disagree with this somewhat. EVs are attractive because of the inherent performance characteristics of an EV drivetrain, and the convenience of charging at home.

People aren't purchasing Tesla's for the tax rebate or cheap fueling...for instance. It's true that we snagged a Leaf because the lease deal was good (which was due in part to the tax credit) but mainly we did so because it was fun to drive, we could charge at home, and could off-set our charging by purchasing wind power (which obviously raises the cost of fueling).

 

[Sethodine]

Thankfully WA state has some of the lowest power rates in the nation (mostly due to hydro power), but even if the cost of electricity cost the same to fuel my Leaf as an equivilant amount of gas, then I would still drive the Leaf because it is so much more pleasant and enjoyable.

I know that I, too, benifited from the subsidy by purchasing a previously leased Leaf, but I think the market has warmed enough to them that subsidies will no longer be needed to "encourage" adoption. Whether subsidies are right or not is not an argument I care to get into. I've been talking to my wife about it, and we might be getting a second used EV sometime in the next year or so (especially if EM collapses or has a major delay).

 

[Ty]

I don't get how people are angry that we subsidize solar panel companies, but are perfectly fine with the crazy subsidies that oil companies get.


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I'm not upset at all that we subsidize solar power. Think about it... if an endeavor needs economy of scale to become practical, and it can't achieve that level of economy of scale on it's own, it will never come to be regardless of how useful it is. Think about all the subsidized endeavors we all take for granted... phone lines, gps, weather prediction, internet... the list goes on and on. Solar panels, like electric vehicles in the past, were too expensive to make it on their own. By "jumpstarting" the industry, we all benefit from something that otherwise would not have been able to compete on its own. That's not always the case and some industries can overcome market limitations with private infusions of cash.

Here's part of the oil subsidies that we all take for granted... There are subsidies for exploration and improvements, of course. We, the taxpayers pay for that, sort of. The top tax payers in the US are the two biggest oil companies. The subsidies can be looked at as more of a "focused tax refund" in that what we've basically done was overcharge taxes and then offer to give them back IF the company will spend the money on research that betters the country. Anyway, it mostly works out, right? We subsidize electric car production just enough to get them on their feet and then the market decides who stays and who goes. The same will happen to solar power. I was THIS close to getting my house in Albuquerque set up on solar panels thanks to government subsidies. Unfortunately, the payback time would have been 4 years and I wasn't going to be staying there that long. Now, if I could get a similar deal to cover 75% of my electrical needs here...

 

[wizard of ahs]

I don't get how people are angry that we subsidize solar panel companies, but are perfectly fine with the crazy subsidies that oil companies get.


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Agreed ☺☺
I believe we need to stop ALL subsidies!
No one subsidized MY business !!!!
Either you make it or you don't... do your homework first ☺☺

 

[Ty]

Agreed. For now, EV is attractive mainly due to subsidies, the problem is that at the moment, electricity is cheap. This will change, (as our present leader has stated) "the costs of electricity must necessarily skyrocket". "Home" generation is being discouraged by regulation, from numerous departments, the idea seems to be to get everyone hooked on EV, then choke them with the price of electricity. For this reason I remain very wary of the EV scene and federal regs limiting self generation. Ten years ago, I could install roof panels and sell excess back to the utility, (at wholesale prices though), now cogeneration is fought at every level, local to federal. They want you to use electricity, as long as you buy it from a 'supplier' , (and you pay even more for buying it from 'green' suppliers. All this is sticking wrenches into the cogs of supply and demand. Apparently we gave up on the idea of "if it is a good deal, it will sell itself" - to the new ACA style....

Actually, in Albuquerque, home generation was encouraged by the government through subsidies, and the electric company because they would pay you to generate your own power. If I generated 1KWH, they would pay me the 1KWH rate for my power PLUS, I got to use that 1KWH free. Basically, the grid payment system would easily be paying me every month during the summer and I'd be out almost nothing during the winter. It was only the fact that my family didn't use a lot of electricity to begin with that made the payoff of the system take 4 years. 4 years I didn't have and thus could not justify (to my wife) the system. Our realtor also couldn't show that solar powered homes were worth more nor that new buyers would be able to compare a house that would save $200-$250 a month in electricity usage was worth some money. They were more likely to compare footage and layout of the house without a thought to future electricity needs. At my new house, my electic bill can easily top $400 making it my largest monthly recurring expense. I would not say that electricity is cheap.

 

[McBrew]

Agreed [emoji5][emoji5]
I believe we need to stop ALL subsidies!
No one subsidized MY business !!!!
Either you make it or you don't... do your homework first [emoji5][emoji5]

Careful.... a study in the 1990s put the price of a gallon of gas at nearly $16 if you took away all subsidies.


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[WAYNE]

No worries about the gas supply for your ICE. Natural gas, one of the most natural supplies on earth will replace Gas and Diesel long before the oil supplies run out. 1 gallon of natural gas will replace 1 gallon of gasoline with very little loss of horsepower. Clean burning and all you will have to do is add a different injector and a heavy duty tank. Natural gas will most likely be used in pickups and heavy duty trucks and equipment first and take the preasure off the oil market. already infrastructure is being installed in truck stops and new pickups and heavy duty trucks. Also you can install it now in your POV just like they did propane. Small cars will be EV's and mostly used for local commutes. Here are some prices per gallon at stations. Looks like it's running from .69 to 2.25 or so depending on your location.
http://www.cngprices.com/station_map.php CNG for the future!

 

[Rickb]

Careful.... a study in the 1990s put the price of a gallon of gas at nearly $16 if you took away all subsidies.


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And even more importantly the price of groceries............without farm subsidies. Easy to make a blanket statement about NO subsidies period without the facts and looking at how even Mr. Wizard benefits.

 

[Elio Amazed]

And even more importantly the price of groceries............without farm subsidies. Easy to make a blanket statement about NO subsidies period without the facts and looking at how even Mr. Wizard benefits.

With groceries, it's not only the farm subsidies. That fuel price McBrew mentioned of $16/gal. would be passed along ON TOP of that. When you get a chance, look up some of the charts that show how many gallons of oil and how many gallons of water it takes to produce any given unit of any food product. I estimate that your average $200 day at the supermarket would easily cost you $2K or more.