Where Did 84 Mpg Come From?

[AriLea]

Maybe you would want to get a look at the Vehicle Research Institute at WWU. I met Eric and Steven when I went back for my Daughter's graduation.
Even talked with Steven about his bus project.

k, bit off topic, couldn't help myself!

The AXP

 

[Marshall]

Rewinding to the beginning of this (old) thread where (paraphrasing) the OP was questioning that the goal of 84mpg seemed arbitrary so why waste time pursuing an arbitrary mpg target why not be happy with a slightly lower number why waste time and money "tweaking" to get to the 84mpg goal.

I'd had a somewhat similar thought but with an almost opposite conclusion - I was remembering that the automotive X prize set the goal of a mass producible car that did *100 mpg*.

You could argue that "100" was a likewise arbitrary number - but I don't think it's *psychologically* arbitrary - I think "100" is kind of a easy to remember number which for marketing purposes would be more impressive (if it were possible?). i.e. It's a little easier for me to imagine somebody excitedly saying "wow did you see that three wheeled elio car did you know it gets *100* miles per gallon!!" than "wow did you see that three wheeled elio car did you know it gets 84 miles per gallon".

(or maybe I'm wrong - as I write that I guess 84 does sound impressive too)

My real comment/question in writing the above is for you mechanically savvy people on this forum: Could there have been any way to achieve 100mpg with the Elio?

I guess I imagine generally (from freshmen physics!) the ways you might achieve 100mpg would be: a. reduce weight, b. improve aerodynamics, c. reduce friction? (within the vehicle and/or "rolling resistance" with the road?), d. improve the efficiency of the engine... any others?

And final thought - I know so little about engines but I'd noted this three wheeled vehicle somewhat like the elio that did enter the automotive x-prize claimed to use a "fuel vapor" engine - could something similar help raise the mpg of the elio to 100+ mpg I wonder?

http://www.ridelust.com/fuel-vapor-ale-gets-92mpg-car-with-a-5-second-zero-to-sixty/

Interesting concept if the price isn't too high. I'd also wonder if the leaner fuel mix would cause any extraordinary problems with the engine. But I sincerely doubt they achieved 92 MPG WHILE going from 0-60 in 5 seconds. Maybe one or the other with the same engine.

 

[Ty]

Addressing the issue of 100 mpg has some good responses, but I think I could add a bit or two.

I used to work on high-mileage research vehicles, the Western Washington University Viking cars 4,5 and 6 from the early 1980's. Just a couple years ago WWU entered the Automotive Xprize based on meeting the 100MPG threshold. Viking cars are sociable seating 4 wheel sports cars. Comparable to a Miata, but better for mileage. The people who built the Avion which also competed in the AXP, were my classmates who entered their own car built in the 80's.

The basic premise for Viking car mileage is very similar to the Elio, small frontal area, small weight, good aerodynamics, correct choice of power train. This comes at the tradeoffs of passenger space, comfort, cargo capacity and also to some degree costs. These attributes could be summed up as motivators to buy the vehicle, translation? Count of sales are directly affected.

So basically the answer is yes, you can get 100mpg, but the car must not tradeoff too much if you want the benefit of mass sales giving lower costs. Elio motors feels they took it to the limit. In production year two maybe they will feel they can do more tradeoffs. So, yes more is possible.

My car logo to your left represents a car design, probably just over the limit. I estimate it as a 120mpg autocycle, but would cost double what an Elio does using Elio production. But given my tradeoffs I wouldn't get Elio sales at that level, so the tech I would be forced to use would cost triple or more what an Elio costs to produce.

And yes, I could trade more off, and get better mileage. Where exactly should that stop?

Have you done much work on your design lately?

 

[AriLea]

Have you done much work on your design lately?

No, the project itself has stopped dead. Family issues have totally blocked my work-space and money.
Basically my two adult children, I'm try to put them on track to viable living the last few years. It's getting somewhere now, but may take a year or so more of everyone living with/off me. And 5 grand kids included. Given I started this as a step dad, my good Karma has reached un heard-of levels. lol.

When I have mind-space for it, I continue to research the small stuff, like how exactly to design the 'blind' hinges and 'shallow' head lamp assemblies. Or do more designs for variation on the alternate tops. I already have designs, but I could maybe get something more optimal.

The Elio has both negated the original imperative to make my car, but also given a reason to wait for the Elio engine to power it.

It's a very classic design, so unless I die first there is no way I'm not going to finish it. But now it will partly be out of want rather than need.
Still, wouldn't it be cool to example that a 120mpg car is possible?

Even that has been done (almost) since Opel made it's 113mpg Eco Speedster sportscar.
(although being only marginally better examples of street savvy success than the Viking cars)

 

[Coss]

Given I started this as a step dad, my good Karma has reached un heard-of levels. lol.

Remember a wise saying from many years ago ...... "No good deed goes unpunished"

What you have accomplished is fantastic, but don't forget to watch out for yourself.

 

[Sethodine]

Some of the talk on this thread seems to assume that 84 mpg is a goal that may-or-may-not be obtainable.

But what if EM is actually hedging their bets? I mean, what if the goal is actually 90mpg highway, with 84mpg being the fallback?

 

[Lil4X]

I'm certainly no expert in these matters, but the “alé” would seem to violate a number of physical laws, primarily the chemistry of air-fuel ratios. You aren't going to get more efficient than the stoichiometric ideal at 14.7:1. Not on this planet, and not using current hydrocarbon fuel and ambient air. 20:1 just isn't achievable without a Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor. A 1500cc turbo Honda engine isn't going to run with that level of "excess" air.

Then, there's the problem of weight. The “alé” with it's hand-laid fiberglass body appears to be in serious trouble in the weight department . . . it's going to be a beast, with a tube frame and that "big" engine - well in excess of the claimed 1400# advertised. Now you get into the realism of marketing. Good luck selling a non-air-conditioned vehicle with a transparent roof, aka, a broiler. All that plexiglas (I assume) looks fine in the drawing, but it's going to be a problem in Arizona and Nevada where (again, I assume) it will be delivered with a basting brush for the driver.

Fortunately, this scam hasn't produced a real vehicle. Thus far, like the great unloved "Dale" of the '70's, it's only a "concept" out looking for investors. The Dale was only one plywood and fiberglass mockup that fleeced a number of investors on the promise of a full production run and multiple national dealerships.

. . Oddly, the “alé” looks like a reincarnation of the "Dale" with updated styling.

Note the similarity of the name . . . and probably the same kind of hucksterism out searching for investors.

 

[Sethodine]

I really don't see a problem with the "ale" being tube+fiberglass and under 1400#. The Sterling Sports Car is nearly that weight and construction, too (about 1500#) and it's a 4-wheel car.

 

[Ty]

I really don't see a problem with the "ale" being tube+fiberglass and under 1400#. The Sterling Sports Car is nearly that weight and construction, too (about 1500#) and it's a 4-wheel car.

No, the project itself has stopped dead. Family issues have totally blocked my work-space and money.
Basically my two adult children, I'm try to put them on track to viable living the last few years. It's getting somewhere now, but may take a year or so more of everyone living with/off me. And 5 grand kids included. Given I started this as a step dad, my good Karma has reached un heard-of levels. lol.

When I have mind-space for it, I continue to research the small stuff, like how exactly to design the 'blind' hinges and 'shallow' head lamp assemblies. Or do more designs for variation on the alternate tops. I already have designs, but I could maybe get something more optimal.

The Elio has both negated the original imperative to make my car, but also given a reason to wait for the Elio engine to power it.

It's a very classic design, so unless I die first there is no way I'm not going to finish it. But now it will partly be out of want rather than need.
Still, wouldn't it be cool to example that a 120mpg car is possible?

Even that has been done (almost) since Open made it's 113mpg Eco Speedster sportscar.
(although being only marginally better examples of street savvy success than the Viking cars)

That's a tough line - being available and accommodating for your kids but not TOO much so they won't leave!

 

[johnsnownw]

Maybe it's been mentioned, but where are the mpg figures coming from? Are the test designed to simulate EPA or NEDC cycles? Or hypermiling experimentation?