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Where Did 84 Mpg Come From?

Lil4X

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Reading over this thread for a while, a couple of points come to mind. The urban legend of the 100 mpg carburetor - aka the "Fish Carburetor" has been around since the '30's. If you think about it from a scientific standpoint, it's about as logical as perpetual motion. A car, any car, requires a certain amount of energy to move it. The baseline energy requirement is really set by the user. Sure, we could run a Cadillac with a Briggs and Stratton engine, but who'd want it? We want to cruise at 70 mph, accelerate at a pace that won't get us run over by traffic, and still save money on gas. It's going to be a trade-off somewhere.

Now, if you are going to burn pump gas as a motor fuel, there is a ceiling set on fuel efficiency. The air-fuel mixture has to be 14.7/1 to extract the maximum amount of energy from the gasoline. Too rich or too lean simply won't burn. You can lean out the mixture all you want to "save" gas, but you won't go anywhere, or will produce large volumes of NOX that nobody wants to breathe. Catalytic converters can help reduce emissions, but functioning as an "afterburner" don't contribute to motive power while involved in cleaning up the exhaust from a too-lean engine. It's more than a problem of carburation, its the design of the entire engine, drivetrain, and even the car itself.

EM has addressed aerodynamics in a rather unique way by providing tandem seating, thus a slender shape that moves through the air with greater efficiency. The current engine being developed is being designed and tuned for torque - the number that is most important to moving the vehicle. Actual horsepower is for barroom bragging, it's not really important to getting your vehicle off the line and up to speed. Keeping weight to a minimum is another key to Elio's design concept. Weight tends to multiply itself. Put a motor on a bicycle and suddenly you're faced with other issues like a heavier suspension to carry the increased load and larger brakes to stop it . . . which further increases weight, and so on.

As to the big oil companies stifling automotive development in fuel efficiency, that's not a problem. I've worked in and around the oil industry all my adult life and there is no logic in hampering fuel efficiency, particularly in autombiles. Oil companies are saddled with vast expenses for finding, extracting, transporting, refining, and marketing their products. It only makes sense that they maximize their income to attract and retain their investors. Motor gasoline represents a loss leader for them, even at $3.50/gal. They can make considerably more money turning that crude into pharmaceuticals, chemicals, plastics, and even construction materials that sell at higher prices. One of the problems with making motor gasoline is that it goes through the engine, out the tailpipe, and it's gone. There is no recycling, no cooperative use, and certainly no benefit to burning their hard-won product in an internal combustion engine.

We'd all like to find someone to blame for high fuel prices, but the truth is in constant dollars, we aren't paying much more for gas today than we did in the '50's. Although there have been spikes in the cost of gas, the same gallon of gas you bought at $2.52 in 2007, would have cost (in constant dollars) $2.19 in 1950*. Sure, without that inflation adjustment, that gallon of 1950 gas would have been about 26¢, but that's only part of the story. Not only is your dollar worth less, but motor gasoline is taxed heavily by both the federal and state governments**. There's your "fair tax", charging you for the miles you drive, giving tax benefits to those who choose to save their gas (taxes) by adopting more fuel-efficient driving practices and purchasing more efficient automobiles. That one is already in place and has proven to be fair . . . and it doesn't require that Uncle Sugar monitor your monthly driving habits to soak you for a few more bucks because of your irresponsible use of fuel.
__________________________
* http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty-research/sahr/gasoline.pdf
** http://www.gaspricewatch.com/web_gas_taxes.php
 

Ty

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Reading over this thread for a while, a couple of points come to mind. The urban legend of the 100 mpg carburetor - aka the "Fish Carburetor" has been around since the '30's. If you think about it from a scientific standpoint, it's about as logical as perpetual motion. A car, any car, requires a certain amount of energy to move it. The baseline energy requirement is really set by the user. Sure, we could run a Cadillac with a Briggs and Stratton engine, but who'd want it? We want to cruise at 70 mph, accelerate at a pace that won't get us run over by traffic, and still save money on gas. It's going to be a trade-off somewhere.

Now, if you are going to burn pump gas as a motor fuel, there is a ceiling set on fuel efficiency. The air-fuel mixture has to be 14.7/1 to extract the maximum amount of energy from the gasoline. Too rich or too lean simply won't burn. You can lean out the mixture all you want to "save" gas, but you won't go anywhere, or will produce large volumes of NOX that nobody wants to breathe. Catalytic converters can help reduce emissions, but functioning as an "afterburner" don't contribute to motive power while involved in cleaning up the exhaust from a too-lean engine. It's more than a problem of carburation, its the design of the entire engine, drivetrain, and even the car itself.

EM has addressed aerodynamics in a rather unique way by providing tandem seating, thus a slender shape that moves through the air with greater efficiency. The current engine being developed is being designed and tuned for torque - the number that is most important to moving the vehicle. Actual horsepower is for barroom bragging, it's not really important to getting your vehicle off the line and up to speed. Keeping weight to a minimum is another key to Elio's design concept. Weight tends to multiply itself. Put a motor on a bicycle and suddenly you're faced with other issues like a heavier suspension to carry the increased load and larger brakes to stop it . . . which further increases weight, and so on.

As to the big oil companies stifling automotive development in fuel efficiency, that's not a problem. I've worked in and around the oil industry all my adult life and there is no logic in hampering fuel efficiency, particularly in autombiles. Oil companies are saddled with vast expenses for finding, extracting, transporting, refining, and marketing their products. It only makes sense that they maximize their income to attract and retain their investors. Motor gasoline represents a loss leader for them, even at $3.50/gal. They can make considerably more money turning that crude into pharmaceuticals, chemicals, plastics, and even construction materials that sell at higher prices. One of the problems with making motor gasoline is that it goes through the engine, out the tailpipe, and it's gone. There is no recycling, no cooperative use, and certainly no benefit to burning their hard-won product in an internal combustion engine.

We'd all like to find someone to blame for high fuel prices, but the truth is in constant dollars, we aren't paying much more for gas today than we did in the '50's. Although there have been spikes in the cost of gas, the same gallon of gas you bought at $2.52 in 2007, would have cost (in constant dollars) $2.19 in 1950*. Sure, without that inflation adjustment, that gallon of 1950 gas would have been about 26¢, but that's only part of the story. Not only is your dollar worth less, but motor gasoline is taxed heavily by both the federal and state governments. There's your "fair tax", charging you for the miles you drive, giving tax benefits to those who choose to save their gas (taxes) by adopting more fuel-efficient driving practices and purchasing more efficient automobiles. That one is already in place and has proven to be fair . . . and it doesn't require that Uncle Sugar monitor your monthly driving habits to soak you for a few more bucks because of your irresponsible use of fuel.
__________________________
* http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/faculty-research/sahr/gasoline.pdf
... and that system of taxing gas to pay for our roads has worked well enough so far. Sure, we complain about the roads but they are, in fact, pretty decent. However, what happens when the average fuel economy doubles? Perhaps through electrics and Elios and other improvements? We still need the money for the roads and that has to come from somewhere. As far as roads go, why is it fair that an electric car user uses the road free while others have to pay? Sure, you could argue "But he isn't harming the environment..." That's separate. When it comes to roads, someone has to pay for them. Maybe the current model will work to squeeze everyone away from gas burners but eventually, that burden will be too great to work and a different model will have to be employed. Perhaps some kind of formula taking mileage AND weight into account would make sense. Afterall, I know that my F350 is harder on the roads than that Prius next to me. This did get a little off the OP as these things tend to do. 84MPG is three times the average commuter car mileage... That's what is so special about it.
 

Lil4X

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Well, your F350 is going to burn more fuel, producing more tax revenue for the state. You pays your money and you takes your choice. A smaller, lightweight, more efficient Elio will pay less than even the Prius to the highway cabal.

That's another point; your Elio will be "consuming" less of the highway because it won't wear the road surface thanks to its light weight. One of the great things the Interstate highways have none for this nation is to get the heavy truck traffic off our secondary roads. The result is that (except where freeze-thaw cycles take their toll) our secondary roads are in remarkably good shape. The big 18-wheelers have all moved to the big super-slab where they can be more efficient in point-to-point service. That leaves a lot of secondary roads and country lanes available for us in our Elios. ROAD TRIP!!
 

Ty

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Well, your F350 is going to burn more fuel, producing more tax revenue for the state. You pays your money and you takes your choice. A smaller, lightweight, more efficient Elio will pay less than even the Prius to the highway cabal.

That's another point; your Elio will be "consuming" less of the highway because it won't wear the road surface thanks to its light weight. One of the great things the Interstate highways have none for this nation is to get the heavy truck traffic off our secondary roads. The result is that (except where freeze-thaw cycles take their toll) our secondary roads are in remarkably good shape. The big 18-wheelers have all moved to the big super-slab where they can be more efficient in point-to-point service. That leaves a lot of secondary roads and country lanes available for us in our Elios. ROAD TRIP!!
I concur. As long as they maintain the tax per gallon of gas, the status quo remains. Of course, my truck burns more fuel and is heavier (big part of the cause) and thus puts more wear on the road. I deserve to pay more to use the roads as I "use more of them". (To illustrate my point, I'm going to FAR extreme here) Say, everyone in my state said screw it, I'm going electric. I'm the only one buying gas. Is it fair that I would then have to basically subsidise the road usage of all the electrics? The electrics, while lighter, still use the road. They should pay something for that right. I should pay more but there should be some method of making it work. Now, in most cases, this works. I pay more than a Prius, I use more. But, the Prius still pays something at least. If the fuel economy doubles, taxes either have to be doubled or road expenditures have to be halved. Now, if everyone drove light cars, the road expenses would be a little lower. How do you increase mileage like President Obama has set in motion without losing road revenue? He wants to get rid of gas tax and make it a true use tax in the form of Toll roads everywhere. Ugh.... I'd rather see an annual tax per vehicle based on weight and mileage. At least then I wouldn't be inconvenienced by toll roads. (Yes, Pay Pass is pretty simple but still...)
 

ecdriver711

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Elio working so hard to achieve their written goals gives me confidence their goal for a quality product for the price is high on their list also..;)
 

bowers baldwin

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I've seen a fair bit of talk from the Elio camp about how they're tweaking this or that trying their damnedest to get to 84 mpg. Don't get me wrong, gas mileage is a good thing and all that, but do we have any idea what's so magical about 84? I'd rather the car come out tomorrow with 75 mpg than see them experience delay after delay because they're hell bent on some arbitrarily chosen number.
The real reason for the 84 mpg goal!
vwad66.jpg
 

Snick

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I concur. As long as they maintain the tax per gallon of gas, the status quo remains. Of course, my truck burns more fuel and is heavier (big part of the cause) and thus puts more wear on the road. I deserve to pay more to use the roads as I "use more of them". (To illustrate my point, I'm going to FAR extreme here) Say, everyone in my state said screw it, I'm going electric. I'm the only one buying gas. Is it fair that I would then have to basically subsidise the road usage of all the electrics? The electrics, while lighter, still use the road. They should pay something for that right. I should pay more but there should be some method of making it work. Now, in most cases, this works. I pay more than a Prius, I use more. But, the Prius still pays something at least. If the fuel economy doubles, taxes either have to be doubled or road expenditures have to be halved. Now, if everyone drove light cars, the road expenses would be a little lower. How do you increase mileage like President Obama has set in motion without losing road revenue? He wants to get rid of gas tax and make it a true use tax in the form of Toll roads everywhere. Ugh.... I'd rather see an annual tax per vehicle based on weight and mileage. At least then I wouldn't be inconvenienced by toll roads. (Yes, Pay Pass is pretty simple but still...)


What I propose is a simple ton*miles tax in place of all motor fuel taxes. At each registration renewal, you'd pay however many miles you traveled since last time multiplied by the weight of your vehicle, with you in it. You could drive up on a scale at the DMV or emissions testing site and pay to renew your vehicle tags at that time. It would be more fair in that heavier vehicles and those that travel a lot of miles pay more, since they damage the roads more.

Simple. Fair. Obvious.
 

Ty

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What I propose is a simple ton*miles tax in place of all motor fuel taxes. At each registration renewal, you'd pay however many miles you traveled since last time multiplied by the weight of your vehicle, with you in it. You could drive up on a scale at the DMV or emissions testing site and pay to renew your vehicle tags at that time. It would be more fair in that heavier vehicles and those that travel a lot of miles pay more, since they damage the roads more.

Simple. Fair. Obvious.
Exactly what I had in mind!
 
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