Will Your Elio Retain Its Resale Value?

[Lil4X]

Based upon statements of several EM employees and their website, the frame and roll cage appear to be made of "high strength steel", and what pictures I've seen indicate the roll cage is fabricated of MIG-welded (for now) square-tube stock. That'll probably change in production because hand fabricating that cage is going to take too long on an assembly line.

But those body panels are another story. Bob Lutz commented on the use of plastic body parts at GM a couple of years ago, indicating that FRP (fiberglass) is fine for low-production vehicles, but unsuited to high-volume applications simply because they take too long to cure. Thermoplastics like ABS (the stuff they make football helmets out of) can be injection molded and is ready to hang when it's popped out of the mold. Dow plastics has a proprietary blend of ABS and Polycarbonate they call "Pulse" that was used in the Saturn's door skins while GE's GTX blend of polyphenylene oxide and polyamide (PPO/PA) was used on the quarter-panels. They were very effective at resisting damage and standing up to the elements. They did have one problem though - they weren't exactly dimensionally stable when exposed to heat. If you look at a (plastic bodied) Saturn's flanks, the problem becomes clear; because those panels grow and shrink a bit with temperature, panel gaps have to be inordinately large. In the '50's and '60's it was common to see panel gaps you could stick your finger in, but not any more. We've come to expect better fitment in our cars. Now if the guys down in the chemistry lab solve this one, we're on our way!

 

[jtmarten]

Excellent info, thanks!

 

[jtmarten]

I'm pretty sure I saw an official mention of steel during the P4 build. Unknown about the P5 or final though. Appeared to be square hollow tubes.

That's what I figured. Hopefully they'll at least treat the chassis for corrosion/rust resistance. E-coating the chassis would be awesome, but would add significantly to the processing cost.

 

[Joshua Caldwell]

Elio had better do corrosion coating, Geo's reputation for rust is part of what killed the company IMHO. However the main thing was cheap gas I think.

 

[Lil4X]

Technology has come a long way in steel coatings. "Powder coating", applied as a "flame spray" or dipped in a fluidized b ed works to melt a thermoplastic and apply it to the steel substrate. The advantage of these coatings is that they are tough, particularly products like Nylon-11 that are used in industrial and utility valves for corrosive service. They can be colored practically any way you would like and for high-production, can be heated in an tunnel oven before being plunged into a fluidized bed of plastic powder. When removed from the bed, the plastic begins to melt and a clean coat of tough plastic applied to the base metal that is only removable by sand blasting (and not easily, at that). One of the little-known advantages of this kind of coating is that it doesn't permit undercutting by rust. A scratch may rust, but it doesn't spread underneath the coat. If you wish, most scratches can be repaired by a propane torch and a salt-shaker full of the correct polymer. Heat, sprinkle, done. It's not always as pretty as a full respray, but it's completely functional.

I had the opportunity to work with the inventor of this process for Dresser Industries some years ago, a Dr. Rene Al, a Belgian (as I recall) import who brought advanced European plastics manufacture to this side of the pond. To say I was gobsmacked by the technology is an understatement, and another friend some years later developed the process into a "flame spray" that passes a fine thermoplastic through the flame of a torch, resulting in a field-applied coating that is almost as durable as that applied in a large manufacturing plant.

Coating the frame and running gear in this manner should resist impact damage from stones thrown up from the wheels, and consequent rust. I would think it would be an excellent preservative for any steel surface as we found flame-sprayed test coupons to be completely undamaged after three years submerged in Galveston Bay. A quick wipe of a gloved hand removed all traces of algae, even barnacles. The steel plate beneath was unaffected. Control samples were all but rusted away.

 

[zelio]

Technology has come a long way in steel coatings. "Powder coating", applied as a "flame spray" or dipped in a fluidized b ed works to melt a thermoplastic and apply it to the steel substrate. The advantage of these coatings is that they are tough, particularly products like Nylon-11 that are used in industrial and utility valves for corrosive service. They can be colored practically any way you would like and for high-production, can be heated in an tunnel oven before being plunged into a fluidized bed of plastic powder. When removed from the bed, the plastic begins to melt and a clean coat of tough plastic applied to the base metal that is only removable by sand blasting (and not easily, at that). One of the little-known advantages of this kind of coating is that it doesn't permit undercutting by rust. A scratch may rust, but it doesn't spread underneath the coat. If you wish, most scratches can be repaired by a propane torch and a salt-shaker full of the correct polymer. Heat, sprinkle, done. It's not always as pretty as a full respray, but it's completely functional.

I had the opportunity to work with the inventor of this process for Dresser Industries some years ago, a Dr. Rene Al, a Belgian (as I recall) import who brought advanced European plastics manufacture to this side of the pond. To say I was gobsmacked by the technology is an understatement, and another friend some years later developed the process into a "flame spray" that passes a fine thermoplastic through the flame of a torch, resulting in a field-applied coating that is almost as durable as that applied in a large manufacturing plant.

Coating the frame and running gear in this manner should resist impact damage from stones thrown up from the wheels, and consequent rust. I would think it would be an excellent preservative for any steel surface as we found flame-sprayed test coupons to be completely undamaged after three years submerged in Galveston Bay. A quick wipe of a gloved hand removed all traces of algae, even barnacles. The steel plate beneath was unaffected. Control samples were all but rusted away.

Is it feasible to do this and still be within the price range of the Elio? Sounds like a wonderful solution. I am all for anything that protects my vehicle from rust, as long as it is something I can afford. :-) Z

 

[Lil4X]

I think so, Dresser developed it for application to some of their valves that were in severe service applications. My old friend Jim Reimer (Plastic Flamecoat Systems) developed it as a propane flame-sprayed product for applications in process plants, and for coating ship hulls, and oilfield equipment it had to be cost-effective. None of these were cheap, but when you consider you can scoop up the overspray in the paint booth and use it over again (providing your booth is otherwise spotlessly clean, or you just re-grind any wayward chunks to get it back down to the consistency of face powder), it would probably work well as a field-applied option.

For production lines, I would think Dresser Manufacturing's solution would be cheaper as it's suitable for high production rates and there's no waste. Heat the product to the proper temperature (key) and dip it in a vat of powder with air injected at the bottom. Under these conditions, the dry powder behaves like a liquid (I stuck my hand in and sloshed it about). Dipping a component heated to 550°F into the Nylon-11 powder and withdrawing it after about two or three seconds, the red color first appears a flat pink, then as it flows together and cools, becomes bright red (Any color you can imagine is available, just tint as you wish). It really doesn't require any particular skill (unlike flame-spraying), and the process can be largely automated. Nylon is a rather expensive plastic, but EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate) or any one of a dozen cheaper products can be used for greater economy in ordinary service.

The real secret to either process is the fine grind. EVA is pretty cheap, produced by a number of companies like Monsanto in small berry-sized "beads". These are blended with a powdered pigment and "cryogenically" ground by adding liquid nitrogen to the mix as it is conveyed into a hammer mill. The result looks like your color choice of talcum powder. Your only other consumables are electricity, propane, and compressed air. The powder is commercially available nowadays and shouldn't be hard to find.

I would think that dipping the frame in EVA as a rust preventive, and the exposed suspension components into something that might take even more physical abuse, could be as fast or faster than hand-painting. The production line can be maybe 50' in length through the oven and about twice that for cooling after dipping. Of course that depends on linespeed. The economics in today's dollars would have to be investigated, and both companies have been sold a time or two, but a quick Google search reveals the current owners of the technology. Combined with the plastic body panels, coating metal components of the frame and suspension would produce a structure that's impervious to rust, and can still offer a high luster finish. Because it is prone to a slight orange-peel effect, I wouldn't recommend it on flat exterior surfaces, but from a couple feet away, even the flame-sprayed product looks pretty nice.

 

[Edward]

No. A new one is inexpensive. Why would I want to pay you 3,500 for your used one when I'm half way to a brand new one.

I'd drive my first one into the ground (frankly, probably less than 10 years with my current 30k+ per year commute). But after that, I'd definitely buy a used one that was still in good condition. If I can get a used Elio for half the price of a new one, chances are it will still have more than 50% of it's useable life left.
Assume that a 5 year old Elio sells for $3500 and has 75000 miles on it. I could probably drive that for 6-7 years. That's a cost of ownership of $500-600/year vs new at around $700/year.

 

[KN16]

I'd drive my first one into the ground (frankly, probably less than 10 years with my current 30k+ per year commute). But after that, I'd definitely buy a used one that was still in good condition. If I can get a used Elio for half the price of a new one, chances are it will still have more than 50% of it's useable life left.
Assume that a 5 year old Elio sells for $3500 and has 75000 miles on it. I could probably drive that for 6-7 years. That's a cost of ownership of $500-600/year vs new at around $700/year.

at 75K you'll need at least 3 tires & brake pads/rotors. The clutch will be weak as will the shocks, you'd likely need those within the next 25K. At this point you're still living with "chances are". If you add those parts & labor in you've moved closer to a new one. The 3 year warranty and peace of mind alone carries substantial value. Unless you're going to pack on the options you'll need to save way more than half price to make this work. That's why a 5 year old Elio won't be worth 3.5K.

 

[JP]

I plan to drive it until my life dictates a larger or more practical vehicle. I expect it to hold its value very well like a motorcycle does. However a 6800 car will be worth about a third in 5 to 8 years. I'll have saved up enough by then to buy a new elio with the resale value on mine and the money I saved in gas hopefully