Elio Kit, Would You Still Buy?

[Snick]

Um... all of the manufacturers "lean on suppliers", don't they? Navistar was Ford's supplier of diesel engines for years. In fact, before the 6.7 liter, Ford had never built its own engine... Chevy - same thing but with their electronics. At the GM plant, we imported the hoods for the Hombre... I'll bet you would be hard pressed to find a "manufacturer" of vehicles who builds all their own parts. Seriously. Name one. Elio won't stamp out their own body panels but other than that, they basically have the same business model that GM used at the Shreveport plant--- collect parts, assemble, sell. BTW, Ford's most profitable vehicle line is their Superduty trucks... and they never built their own diesel motors (granted, the motors sucked and I'm glad they now build their own diesel which is a big improvement).

It's kind of cute that you don't think other manufacturers get parts from suppliers... JUST LIKE ELIO WILL.

Perhaps you've misunderstood me. I could have been clearer, sorry. Allow further explanation: EM appears to be leaning on parts suppliers to BUILD AND DESIGN THE WHOLE FRICKIN CAR, INCLUDING THE VALIDATED ASSEMBLY PROCESS.

!!

THAT is the problem. It's of course totally normal to depend on parts suppliers to make parts to YOUR specifications. What EM seems to be trying to do is say "hey, let's put a bunch of parts suppliers together into a room and see if THEY can come up with the specifications, such that all the parts fit perfectly. And hey, while they're at it, couldn't they design and validate the finished goods assembly processes, all subassembly build methods, and everything in between, too?

I wasn't talking about WHO builds the parts, of course PARTS SUPPLIERS will build the parts, but perhaps you were reading my post for foolishness instead of reading it in the plain and obviously intended way. Sometimes I hate the internet format--people seem to resort to Straw Man arguments and other intellectual laziness far to easily, but...too much digression there (reins self in).

To all the readers who think the assembly processes are "simple": waaaaaaahhhh ahhhhhaaaaaa haaaa a haaaaaaahh!!!! You crack me up.


Ty, you seem knowledgeable. I promise to treat you like a grown up and with the respect you deserve, but I think you could step it up and stop stooping to lowest common denominator 'hat trick' debating.

I respectfully thank you.

 

[Ty]

Perhaps you've misunderstood me. I could have been clearer, sorry. Allow further explanation: EM appears to be leaning on parts suppliers to BUILD AND DESIGN THE WHOLE FRICKIN CAR, INCLUDING THE VALIDATED ASSEMBLY PROCESS.

!!

THAT is the problem. It's of course totally normal to depend on parts suppliers to make parts to YOUR specifications. What EM seems to be trying to do is say "hey, let's put a bunch of parts suppliers together into a room and see if THEY can come up with the specifications, such that all the parts fit perfectly. And hey, while they're at it, couldn't they design and validate the finished goods assembly processes, all subassembly build methods, and everything in between, too?

I wasn't talking about WHO builds the parts, of course PARTS SUPPLIERS will build the parts, but perhaps you were reading my post for foolishness instead of reading it in the plain and obviously intended way. Sometimes I hate the internet format--people seem to resort to Straw Man arguments and other intellectual laziness far to easily, but...too much digression there (reins self in).

To all the readers who think the assembly processes are "simple": waaaaaaahhhh ahhhhhaaaaaa haaaa a haaaaaaahh!!!! You crack me up.


Ty, you seem knowledgeable. I promise to treat you like a grown up and with the respect you deserve, but I think you could step it up and stop stooping to lowest common denominator 'hat trick' debating.

I respectfully thank you.

Comau is validating the equipment and process for Elio like they did for GM there. Assembly isn't simple. It is very complicated as is logistics. Elio has suppliers who (and here's the assumption on my part) have excess capability and have agreed to supply parts through what I'd have to assume is some kind of contract. The part that will help Elio is having Comau doing what they do best. Elio is currently doing part fitting as they tweak the model. They should be using parts that are supplied by the same suppliers that will do final supplying. Now, of course, the motor and transmission aren't done yet but Elio can influence the design. Back to the original point - a kit would still require the parts to fit and the car screwed together either on an efficient assembly line or in a garage somewhere. I just meant to say it would be easier to build it on an assembly line vs. in my garage.

 

[goofyone]

Perhaps you've misunderstood me. I could have been clearer, sorry. Allow further explanation: EM appears to be leaning on parts suppliers to BUILD AND DESIGN THE WHOLE FRICKIN CAR, INCLUDING THE VALIDATED ASSEMBLY PROCESS.

I now understand where you are coming from but can't help but wonder why you believe Elio Motors is leaning on suppliers to build and design the entire vehicle? One of the advantages Paul Elio has had from the very beginning of this project is access to engineering resources. Not only is he a mechanical engineer himself but he made the millions of dollars of his own money he used to get this project started because he owns an engineering firm which primarily works in the auto industry. He already had access to a team of designers and engineers who worked for him before this project even began.

 

[Dustoff]

I like many here suspect that these individuals are representing "what/whomever" to derail this product. They are not the benevolent beings they try to be perceived as.

 

[pj rogers]

I am very curious why EM didn't go the way of many of the other concept car people, especially my favorite the ale'.
He build two for the fuel mpg program and could of put any 3-4 cylinder motor in it..and easily sold it. $25,000+
EM and techno sports could be building elios right now and selling them for say $5,000 over cost. A hand built elio might sell for $25,000 but it would sell. Paul Elio says he has 55 million. Spend it building elios. The computers have taken the failure chances out of it. The Suzuki alto motor and transmission would pop right in..order a 100 with that combo and sell them.
That is what delorean did, and tucker I think...the more you sell, the less they cost.
Use facebook and bill boards in the 60 cities you plan to sell it. "The elio is coming to ---------!" Orders would start coming in.
Once enough orders came in, begin a small assembly line and build from there..Make it a 5 year plan like the Ale"..

 

[Dustoff]

DeLorean and Tucker? Really?

 

[Dustoff]

A hand built Morgan starts at $40,000. Yes they sell and a hand built Elio would sell but that is not the sales model proposed by Mr. Elio. What part about an affordable vehicle do you not understand. Oh yes, I'm sorry you do understand but just want to derail the project for whatever reason known only to you and ?.

 

[Snick]

I now understand where you are coming from but can't help but wonder why you believe Elio Motors is leaning on suppliers to build and design the entire vehicle? One of the advantages Paul Elio has had from the very beginning of this project is access to engineering resources. Not only is he a mechanical engineer himself but he made the millions of dollars of his own money he used to get this project started because he owns an engineering firm which primarily works in the auto industry. He already had access to a team of designers and engineers who worked for him before this project even began.

Thank you for the good reminder. To simplify, I think EM is getting these things fantastically brilliant:

• Adherence to a clear and clearly articulated design envelope--most projects of this nature would have ballooned in size, shape, heft by now--and the vehicle would begin to replicate nearly every other over-engineered fat pig of a "commuter car" out there.
• Paul's design engineering background and discipline is being clearly cascaded down to his design team.
• Almost certainly, EM is following the structured design engineering 'Kaizen' principles: write out the user requirements, come up with design inputs, boil down to design outputs, review for safety and efficacy. Lather, rinse, repeat.
• Each generation of prototype gets more and more realistic--hewing to the basic physics more than to designers' hot rod dreams. The wheel skirts are proof of that. The forum crowd HATES them, but they WILL BE required to get good freeway mpg.
• Each generation of prototype keeps the basics right: small frontal area!! Every other car manufacturer seems to have forgotten their freshman physics class! Aero drag effective cross sectional area is Cd MULTIPLIED by A. Other projects like this would have gone to side-by-side seating by now to 'reach a wider market share'. But EM has been DISCIPLINED and SMART. Kudos to them for these things.

Where I think EM is flailing:

• They aren't putting the same discipline into the operations engineering (build execution side of things). They seem to be stuck in 'designer's mindset'. I am a former design engineer who switched over to operations engineering. I know both roles and mind-sets. EM seems to have ZERO effective personalities on their Operations Engineering and Ops execution side. If those roles are filled, then they are deferring to the design team too much. Time to push back with realities of execution strategies.
• Given that EM has posted no progress on OPS engineering, and how late they were in even opening the door to the plant and whipping out their tape measures to FINALLY notice that the Comeau machines were too large and not re-configurable without extensive re-engineering, that TELLS YOU a lot. They should have been in that plant with tape measures in hand the first month!! WTH?! That is either: a.) gross incompetence b.) not having your eyes on the prize c.) leaning on outside 'experts' to tell you what you need or d.) some other reasons/excuses I'd love to hear...
• If EM has any kind of structured operations engineering team and viable V&V build plans, they would shout its successes from the rooftops (Facebook it), and yet....crickets! Are they waiting for the $200M to be delivered on a silver platter with an engraved invitation to get started???

 

[Dustoff]

I believe you are just what Elio is looking for, a world class critic. Maybe you should submit a resume to them and get this thing straightened out.o_O

 

[creekstone]

...the Comeau machines were too large and not re-configurable without extensive re-engineering...

Please share your source for this info.