The Elio Engine

[olddog1946]

The expensive part of building an engine these days is emissions certification. If you're going to build an engine for simplicity and economy there are a number of techniques that have emerged since the Geo's day, including superior metallurgy, precision casting, better induction and fuel management and far superior electronic engine controls. If you're going to build a "new" engine - even one based on a 20 year-old block, to build in volume is going to require extensive rounds of testing and certification. Let's do it once and be done with it.

Setting the bar at 86 mpg with a 55/55 hp/torque output was a lofty goal - and one that EM seems to be meeting. The Suzuki engine would have never made it. From a marketing standpoint, 86 mpg highway is a stunner - and it excuses a lot of lightweight design, odd, three-wheel looks, and tandem seating. Aerodynamics have to be a top priority to achieve that goal, and the final form is going to have to follow the needs expressed in the wind tunnel. That means no two-abreast seating to achieve a narrow frontal section, no saddlebags, trailers, luggage racks, or roof pods to disrupt the clean airflow over the body; even rolling down a window is going to have serious consequences to fuel efficiency. Hence, air conditioning.

Now, with that said, there is no reason several of these options can't be added at or after purchase. Just don't expect that 86mpg figure. What we often lose sight of here is that THIS Elio is designed as a single-seat commuter - with the capability of hauling a passenger and a small amount of luggage - a briefcase or two - that's it. It won't carry the family on a picnic, nor will it haul sheets of plywood for a home DIY project. It's not a sportscar in the modern sense - meaning something with track day potential. Elio will be fun, but within its limits.

I think they are doing it right. They'll spend more up front but end up with a better result. Emissions is a big deal and has to be compliant at next years level as well. In my recent tab renewal I see that Washington state now requires all new vehicles to be California emission compliant.

 

[Horn]

The expensive part of building an engine these days is emissions certification. If you're going to build an engine for simplicity and economy there are a number of techniques that have emerged since the Geo's day, including superior metallurgy, precision casting, better induction and fuel management and far superior electronic engine controls. If you're going to build a "new" engine - even one based on a 20 year-old block, to build in volume is going to require extensive rounds of testing and certification. Let's do it once and be done with it.

Setting the bar at 86 mpg with a 55/55 hp/torque output was a lofty goal - and one that EM seems to be meeting. The Suzuki engine would have never made it. From a marketing standpoint, 86 mpg highway is a stunner - and it excuses a lot of lightweight design, odd, three-wheel looks, and tandem seating. Aerodynamics have to be a top priority to achieve that goal, and the final form is going to have to follow the needs expressed in the wind tunnel. That means no two-abreast seating to achieve a narrow frontal section, no saddlebags, trailers, luggage racks, or roof pods to disrupt the clean airflow over the body; even rolling down a window is going to have serious consequences to fuel efficiency. Hence, air conditioning.

Now, with that said, there is no reason several of these options can't be added at or after purchase. Just don't expect that 86mpg figure. What we often lose sight of here is that THIS Elio is designed as a single-seat commuter - with the capability of hauling a passenger and a small amount of luggage - a briefcase or two - that's it. It won't carry the family on a picnic, nor will it haul sheets of plywood for a home DIY project. It's not a sportscar in the modern sense - meaning something with track day potential. Elio will be fun, but within its limits.

Simplicity techniques in terms of building the engine....sure. Simplicity in terms of a simpler engine....Nope. The emissions would be no problem nor with the advanced fuel management. They don't need to be fancy with all this.

Let's do it once and be done is a good idea if they were an existing car company with tons of capital. They need to get these things on the road. They keep screwing around and missing deadlines.

And how does EM seem to be meeting the 86mpg? They aren't meeting any right now. They have not tested this motor. Its like a student saying they should get an A in a very tough class because they put lots of fancy words together to seem smart. Go in, do the tests, get some results.....then go from there.

You are right about Aerodynamics. I do think it is very possible to get well over 60mpgs to 70s with the Suzuki g10. The XFI metro which had a different cam, trans gear ratio and ECU was rated at 57 highway. Many people have beat that number with these cars. Also the EM will be more aerodynamic and significantly lighter. They could actually have a lower gear ratio than the 3.79 in the XFI. The suzuki g10 would be a great starting point.

 

[Lil4X]

I am so glad you joined our forum Lil4X . . . .

Awwww . . . .

Thanks!

 

[zelio]

I think they are doing it right. They'll spend more up front but end up with a better result. Emissions is a big deal and has to be compliant at next years level as well. In my recent tab renewal I see that Washington state now requires all new vehicles to be California emission compliant.

Is that ALL new vehicles - cars, trucks, mc? - or just cars? :-) Z

 

[msmith5150]

The expensive part of building an engine these days is emissions certification. If you're going to build an engine for simplicity and economy there are a number of techniques that have emerged since the Geo's day, including superior metallurgy, precision casting, better induction and fuel management and far superior electronic engine controls. If you're going to build a "new" engine - even one based on a 20 year-old block, to build in volume is going to require extensive rounds of testing and certification. Let's do it once and be done with it.

Setting the bar at 86 mpg with a 55/55 hp/torque output was a lofty goal - and one that EM seems to be meeting. The Suzuki engine would have never made it. From a marketing standpoint, 86 mpg highway is a stunner - and it excuses a lot of lightweight design, odd, three-wheel looks, and tandem seating. Aerodynamics have to be a top priority to achieve that goal, and the final form is going to have to follow the needs expressed in the wind tunnel. That means no two-abreast seating to achieve a narrow frontal section, no saddlebags, trailers, luggage racks, or roof pods to disrupt the clean airflow over the body; even rolling down a window is going to have serious consequences to fuel efficiency. Hence, air conditioning.

Now, with that said, there is no reason several of these options can't be added at or after purchase. Just don't expect that 86mpg figure. What we often lose sight of here is that THIS Elio is designed as a single-seat commuter - with the capability of hauling a passenger and a small amount of luggage - a briefcase or two - that's it. It won't carry the family on a picnic, nor will it haul sheets of plywood for a home DIY project. It's not a sportscar in the modern sense - meaning something with track day potential. Elio will be fun, but within its limits.

Great post! But I swear I'll find a way to haul plywood on it!

(and it's 84 mpg)

 

[SandyCWV]

snips

...
And how does EM seem to be meeting the 86mpg? They aren't meeting any right now. They have not tested this motor.
...
The suzuki g10 would be a great starting point.

I am not trying to start anything with anyone. As I said before I am usually just reading through these comments. So, no harm intended.
I just find it interesting that so many people "know" what EM is doing in regards to testing, finance, plant setup, etc. Maybe they have tested it. No they haven't reported that they have done the testing yet, but why do so many expect that EM is sharing ALL of their processes with us. They are not just trying to sell this concept to us little people, they are also trying to please investors and I would expect those investors want to keep some of the "inside" information quiet. That might not be how it really works out there in the business world, but I know if I am looking at buying something that isn't exactly on the open market and have put hold money down on it, I don't want the seller sharing too much information with the general public.
As for the second line about the g10 -- maybe it was a starting point and did not meet the requirements. They are using the Geo motor in the prototypes after all. Seems to me that all those smart engineers would have started with a known factor and then moved on if the numbers didn't hit just right.
I know the "maybe and if" comments don't answer all the questions, but that is all we have until EM shares more.

 

[Ekh]

So funding and building the car is quite expensive as we all know.

All of you guys want the Elio out asap, yet want to make sure it is a quality product. Deadlines have been pushed back and progress seems slow.....

So, why are they redesigning the engine to start off with? This costs more money. They could have made a very few changes to the g10 Geo Metro (suzuki) engine to make it more modern looking and disguise it. Also, it would have the same power and could easily get 65MPGs highway with the right transmission and camshaft.

It would make the process faster, cheaper and the engine has been proven very reliable.

Then down the road after making several, they could introduce major engine changes......

They could go with the inline-3 ecoboost from Ford … 993cc, 213 pounds dry weight, 99 horsepower …. how about it, Elio?

 

[msmith5150]

They could go with the inline-3 ecoboost from Ford … 993cc, 213 pounds dry weight, 99 horsepower …. how about it, Elio?

Maybe if Ford owned Elio, but they don't so there's no way Ford would let Elio use their motor in a non-Ford vehicle.

 

[Lil4X]

Great post! But I swear I'll find a way to haul plywood on it!

(and it's 84 mpg)

Noted. Maybe you can form that plywood into an airfoil and strap it to the roof!

 

[Sidecar Bob]

Great post! But I swear I'll find a way to haul plywood on it!

When ELIOs fly