Arcimoto

[KenK]

Also, are they working on the helmet issue that still exists thanks to Elio's narrow definition of autocycle?

My post was only refuting KenK's assertion that EM somehow screwed over Arcimoto, which is total BS.

Eh? I asserted nothing of the sort. Arcimoto doesn't get to use the "autocycle" classification EXACTLY because Elio's definition is quite specific, to the exclusion of damn near everything else. I think the public would have been better served with a simple "2 occupants, 3 wheels, covered/enclosed cabin, and seatbelts" but thats not what we got. Maybe Elio had to be that specific to get it to pass scrutiny, who knows. I am not asserting that EM screwed over anyone intentionally, but the fact that only their vehicle fits the definition was, at the very least, quite shrewd. They are of course under no obligation to open the market up for anyone else.

 

[Doug McDow]

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Just in case this is an honest question: Helmet use when strapped into a harness/seat belt requires additional safety restraints that anchor the helmet to prevent placing additional strain on the neck due to the weight of the helmet. These safety devices are required by the various racing associations. I forget the names of these, but they should be easy to google.

At my age I don’t really worry about safety! It’s all the drivers in my path that should be worried!

 

[Rob Croson]

Eh? I asserted nothing of the sort. Arcimoto doesn't get to use the "autocycle" classification EXACTLY because Elio's definition is quite specific, to the exclusion of damn near everything else.

Of course you did: "...thanks to Elio's narrow definition of autocycle." And you just repeated that assertion again, blaming Arcimoto's inability to be classified as an autocycle on Elio's lobbying efforts.

I think the public would have been better served with a simple "2 occupants, 3 wheels, covered/enclosed cabin, and seatbelts" but thats not what we got.

Perhaps, but I am not in complete agreement with that.

Interestingly enough, though, that's what you have in most states. The language of course varies form state to state, since the federal law was never enacted.

I found this link this morning that goes into some detail on the variations in autocycle laws.:

http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/transportation-review-autocycles.aspx

Here are the area where I think the Arcimoto SRK falls short:

• 15 states require autocycles be enclosed.

A simple decision to include the inexpensive doors in the default configuration would have avoided this. Fortunately, it is an inexpensive option for those that need it. (Or want to drive in anything other than perfect warm, dry weather...)

• Eight states require autocycles to have antilock brakes.

Arcimoto's main specs page for the SRK doesn't say anything about anti-lock brakes. (Really? Seems like a very poor decision.)

• Four states require autocycles to have airbags.

Arcimoto SRK appears to not have air bags. (Again, really?)


Nebraska and Vermont require steering wheels. The steering wheel requirement is a recommendation in the 2013 American Association of Motor Vehicles Administrators guide regarding the regulation of autocycles, the development of which probably predates EM's big push for autocycle laws. It is an interesting read if you're involved in the autocycle issue, and is linked from the above page.

(Interestingly enough, the above brochure has a picture of the Arcimoto SRK as an autocycle, despite it clearly not meeting their definition of an autocycle! You can't see the steering bar in the picture, though.)

Some state require windshield wipers. Does the SRK have a windshield wiper? Couldn't find it listed, but it's a minor thing that could easily be not featured. (IMO, inexcusable to have a windshield and no wipers.)

Surprisingly the Elio is not an autocycle in Arkansas, which requires autocycles to be zero-emission vehicles. That may be a good thing, as Arkansas apparently doesn't allow autocycles to be driven on controlled access highways!

Arkansas’s statute states that an autocycle shall not be operated on an interstate highway if: the operation of autocycles or motorcycles is prohibited, the road is a controlled-access highway, the posted speed limit is more than 55 mph or the autocycle cannot maintain a speed equal to the posted speed limit.​

Anyway.... Arcimoto has made a lot of design choices that restrict its free and easy operation in many states. None of this is Elio's fault. It is all due to Arcimoto's design choices. I hope it still works out for them, but only time will tell.

 

[Elio Amazed]

All I'm saying is that I don't have the Arcimoto, Sondors, SAM, or Electra Meccanica option currently if I'm in California or 18 other states, unless I'm willing to wear a helmet & get a motorcycle endorsement. The helmet would be dangerous and the motorcycle endorsement a pain in the butt. Eliminate the helmet, motorcycle endorsement and long road trips and I want the Arcimoto as well...to tell the truth!

Read my previous post. You DO NOT have to wear a helmet when you drive an SRK in California.
The Solo meets all the other states' requirements for an autocycle designation except for air bags and ABS.
I expect that the Sondors EV will also meet these requirements and they're talking about having ABS and air bags.

Just FYI... The Solo (and any other three wheeled CAR registered in Canada) has to pass government mandated crash testing requirements.

The SAM isn't worth talking about, as it likely won't get off the ground in Europe and will never see the North American shore.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Some state require windshield wipers. Does the SRK have a windshield wiper? Couldn't find it listed, but it's a minor thing that could easily be not featured. (IMO, inexcusable to have a windshield and no wipers.)

Just for the sake of Clarification...
Arcimoto has said that the production models will have a windshield wiper.
The prototypes (with plexiglass windshields) did not have windshield wipers.

 

[Sailor Dog]

Read my previous post. You DO NOT have to wear a helmet when you drive an SRK in California.
The Solo meets all the other states' requirements for an autocycle designation except for air bags and ABS.
I expect that the Sondors EV will also meet these requirements and they're talking about having ABS and air bags.

Just FYI... The Solo (and any other three wheeled CAR registered in Canada) has to pass government mandated crash testing requirements.

The SAM isn't worth talking about, as it likely won't get off the ground in Europe and will never going to see the North American shore.

 

[Rob Croson]

The Solo meets all the other states' requirements for an autocycle designation except for air bags and ABS.

So, it does NOT meet all other state requirements for being an autocycle, then. It doesn't matter if you meet everything "except". It's the "except" that matters. In this case that "except" numbers between 8 and 12 states where it is NOT an autocycle. (ABS 8 states, air bags 4 states, not sure about the overlap.)

I expect that the Sondors EV will also meet these requirements and they're talking about having ABS and air bags.

Good. Smart move. Otherwise they won't meet the requirements in those 8-12 states, either.

Arcimoto has said that the production models will have a windshield wiper.

Good to hear. I couldn't quickly find it on their web site. As I said, this is a pretty minor thing, so understandable that it wouldn't be listed. (Notably: the Polaris Slingshot does NOT have a windshield wiper. Of course it doesn't have a top, either...)

The motorcycle endorsement license requirement change is the easiest step in Arcimoto's road to production, particularly when there will be 1000s of validated, safety tested production SRKs on the road that even the State legislators want to ride.

That's debatable. Given the number of states that already have autocycle laws on the books that exclude the SRK, and the AAMVA guidelines that recommend things like steering wheels, I am not sure this is true. It seems like it would be easier to get the initial laws passed, than to modify the existing ones. Especially when you are trying to relax the regulations. As autocycles get more and more popular, I expect laws to get *more* restrictive, not less. They are being marketed/sold as cars, and replacements for cars. They are NOT being marketed as motorcycles. I fully expect that as time goes by, and we see more of these on the roads, that the government requirements for three-wheelers will be brought more in line with cars. This includes the addition of mandatory sfaety features such as air bags, anti-lock brakes, backup camers, etc.

It would be a smart move for Arcimoto, Electrameccanica, Sondors, etc., to start thinking about this in their next generation autocycles.

Arcimoto is not trying to create a whole new vehicle classification.

True, but they are trying to get an existing classification redefined with fewer restrictions. Have you ever know our government to change laws to make things easier and less restrictive?

 

[Sailor Dog]

The motorcycle endorsement exemption will be the easiest step in Arcimoto's road to production, particularly when there will be 1000s of validated, safety tested production SRKs on the road that even the State legislators want to ride. Arcimoto is not trying to create a whole new vehicle classification.

The MC licensing exemption is a simple change to current MC licensing requirements. I contacted and worked (phone/email discussions) with my State Senator in 2015-16 to get the current Idaho auto cycle bill drafted and passed. My overly excited claim that there were going to be 1000s of Elio's on the roadways in 2016 , so better git r done argument.........haunts me......frankly, embarrassing. Also, at that time the Gen7 SRK had a steering wheel and would have met the requirements.

I'm happy the SRK shed the 750# and changed to handlebar steering, creating a more comfortable upright sitting position, and a more agile fun ride. I won't mind the slight inconvenience of getting a mc endorsement when taking delivery of my Pilot SRK.

Note: In a side impact scenario, neither the SRK or the Elio will be safe and the Elio will not be 5 star safety rated as initially marketed. The only narrow/half a car that I would feel safe driving is the Tango with it's nascar engineered safety cage.

Tell me more about the Tango... never heard of it.

So, it does NOT meet all other state requirements for being an autocycle, then. It doesn't matter if you meet everything "except". It's the "except" that matters. In this case that "except" numbers between 8 and 12 states where it is NOT an autocycle. (ABS 8 states, air bags 4 states, not sure about the overlap.)


Good. Smart move. Otherwise they won't meet the requirements in those 8-12 states, either.


Good to hear. I couldn't quickly find it on their web site. As I said, this is a pretty minor thing, so understandable that it wouldn't be listed. (Notably: the Polaris Slingshot does NOT have a windshield wiper. Of course it doesn't have a top, either...)


That's debatable. Given the number of states that already have autocycle laws on the books that exclude the SRK, and the AAMVA guidelines that recommend things like steering wheels, I am not sure this is true. It seems like it would be easier to get the initial laws passed, than to modify the existing ones. Especially when you are trying to relax the regulations. As autocycles get more and more popular, I expect laws to get *more* restrictive, not less. They are being marketed/sold as cars, and replacements for cars. They are NOT being marketed as motorcycles. I fully expect that as time goes by, and we see more of these on the roads, that the government requirements for three-wheelers will be brought more in line with cars. This includes the addition of mandatory sfaety features such as air bags, anti-lock brakes, backup camers, etc.

It would be a smart move for Arcimoto, Electrameccanica, Sondors, etc., to start thinking about this in their next generation autocycles.


True, but they are trying to get an existing classification redefined with fewer restrictions. Have you ever know our government to change laws to make things easier and less restrictive?

 

[Sailor Dog]

Why the debate? The vehicle startups will do what they want/need to create market acceptance for their production vehicles. The only three wheeler that is in production and closest to being USA titled and licensed as a motorcycle with or with out meeting the autocycle requirements is the EMV SOLO. Neither Elio or Arcimoto has a vehicle that is USA compliance certified that can be legally registered and licensed. The manufactures will handle our concerns..........or not. Buy what you like, like what you drive.

I think it's debatable that the crowded field of EV 3 wheelers classified as motorcycles leaves room for many winners. Barely space for even Big 3 auto. Very easy to go from low to no production.
At the dog park this morning I showed 11 of them pictures of the SRK, the E1C, and the Solo. Don't know if the shot of the E1C from above is the reason but only Snoopy's owner didn't prefer the E1C and they liked the Solo. The SRK comment I heard 4-5 times is that it looks like it belongs on a golf course not the interstate. All but one thought the Solo looked like a big toe, stubby or chopped off. All but one loved the aero styling and solid appearance of the E1C. So then I talked about the ICE and it seems that at least in this small sample...range matters.

 

[MrWhsprs]

Tell me more about the Tango... never heard of it.

It's a tiny 2-person EV...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango
http://www.commutercars.com