Elio Erks Me To No End

[eliothegreat]

<big snip>

Very well put. Applause. I may not agree with a number of your other posts, but this one was absolutely great. Thank you.

 

[eliothegreat]

With all due respect, you seemed like a very educated person based on how you eloquently details your point. What you just can't simply grasped is that NOTHING is deceptive w/ EM's ads or claims of $6800 and 84 mpg UNTIL, I say again, UNTIL they are ready to sell with a different price and mpg! That's WHEN you come in, but not NOW because EM is still working to achieve these goals. But also understand that they have all the right to change this ads to a different price and mpg if they believe it's necessary to get this project to fruition.

Thank you for your kind words. If I understand correctly, you think that my opinion that elio motors has taken money under false pretenses is either wrong or premature.

At some point, if/when the vehicle is actually offered for sale and a binding contract is signed, there should be clear specifications on that agreement. If those specs are not met at time of delivery, I think both of us agree that that would constitute a breach.

Projecting a little further, if, at the time the binding contract is offered, the then-current specs are different than the specs than were announced at the time the first non-refundable, non-binding agreement was signed, do you believe that at that point, there is a breach, or a mis-representation going back to the time of the reservation? I do not. If the vehicle makes it to the point of being offered for sale, either the reservationist accept the offer, or declines, and I'm good with that.

In my mind (a scary place, to be sure), either the problem exists now, because elio is aware that they have made, and are making false "promises", or it does not exist at all. If they really are doing the best they can, there is, or at least should be, no liability on their part. I believe any claim at the point the binding contract is offered and/or accepted would have to be based on elio's knowingly promising that the would not meet that promise. In my mind, that could/would apply, whether the discrepancy was price, performance, standard equipment of whatever. On a realistic basis, I don't think anyone would sue over $1-2K on the price, or 5-10mpg, but I could be wrong.

I apologize if that does not clearly express my thinking.

 

[RUCRAYZE]

I'll post the quote again:
Tavarish: I've owned many scooters and have been around motorcycles for quite some time, and I understand that there are different technologies there, which does account for some of the price difference, for example aluminum frames and highly-strung miniaturized race engines on sports bikes. For the Elio, I think the claim is a little lofty. If you had said "This is going to be less than $10,000", it would be a little more palatable, but $6800 seems too good to be true.

Paul Elio: In all honesty, it's a stretch target. And at full disclosure, we're about $500 over budget today. If we went into production immediately, it would be 81 miles per gallon, and $7300. I don't view it as a failure, and we're working hard to hit our numbers because I think we have a decent shot of doing it. That number isn't made up, we have every single part that's required to make this vehicle, we have 87 percent quoted by part number and 98 percent by dollar value. So we can do this, I have the data to back it up.

All the info was in the quote. Paul was asked, clearly "Can you build it for $6800, and will it get 84mpg?" Even if those were not the exact words, if you read the whole interview in context, that was the question. In fact, it took about 3 passes to get a straight answer. Paul's answer, clearly was "No. It would cost $7300 and get 81mpg if we build it now." There is no way you can rationally interpret his answer to mean "Yes. We can build it right now for $6800 and it will get 84mpg."

Most of you are familiar with the latest production delay announcement(s), whether via interview, meeting or email. There is no rational way to interpret the announcement as anything other than "We don't have the money needed, and we cannot meet our planned production date of September 2015." It is true that he positively affirmed that the problem was when, and not if, they would come up with the money and produce the vehicle. It is also quite true from his statements that he can't do it now, nor by September 2015.

It is inconceivable (cue Princess Bride reference) to me that this is even a question. If paul wants to build the vehicle, and I honestly believe he does want to, if he could build it today for $6800 w/84mpg, he would. If he could build it by September, he would. Are you really saying, as you seem to be, that he can do those things, but merely chooses not to?

Would you be any less offended had I used "admitted" or "confessed" or "disclosed", rather that "stated"?

thanks

 

[goofyone]

What EM knows, that most of us should know however many of us do not appear to be fully processing, is that there is a big difference in the PR and marketing involved in selling the Elio Motors concept to potential reservation holders and the PR and marketing involved in selling a final product to consumers. By their own admission EM's marketing strategy, up until now and like continuing until about the time they have everything lined up for production, is focused on selling EM as a concept to people who understand the risks yet are willing to fund reservations anyhow.

As has been discussed in various marketing threads on this forum over time we have even heard EM define their target marketing audience right now as older, affluent, primarily male, and with an emphasis on current and former motorcycle riders. This demonstrates that EM clearly understands where their marketing needs to be aimed right now. EM is also fully aware of the fact that they will need to shift their marketing effort to new target groups when they are ready to sell the final product to retail customers.

It also helps to keep in mind that while EM has goals and projections they have shared for this vehicle they have never actually guaranteed they would be able to deliver on any of these things. The fact of the matter is that the reservation agreement does not even guarantee EM will provide the reservation holder with a vehicle let alone promise any details about the vehicle nor when any vehicles will be available to purchase.

Failure to fully appreciate the full ramifications of these key points is what I see as the major cause of disappointment being expressed among the EM followers at this time.

 

[RUCRAYZE]

what happened to the mysterious PR meeting with the engine ??

Hey haven't heard from Ya- How's things? Sparrow's still humming?

 

[RUCRAYZE]

Thank you for your kind words. If I understand correctly, you think that my opinion that elio motors has taken money under false pretenses is either wrong or premature.

At some point, if/when the vehicle is actually offered for sale and a binding contract is signed, there should be clear specifications on that agreement. If those specs are not met at time of delivery, I think both of us agree that that would constitute a breach.

Projecting a little further, if, at the time the binding contract is offered, the then-current specs are different than the specs than were announced at the time the first non-refundable, non-binding agreement was signed, do you believe that at that point, there is a breach, or a mis-representation going back to the time of the reservation? I do not. If the vehicle makes it to the point of being offered for sale, either the reservationist accept the offer, or declines, and I'm good with that.

In my mind (a scary place, to be sure), either the problem exists now, because elio is aware that they have made, and are making false "promises", or it does not exist at all. If they really are doing the best they can, there is, or at least should be, no liability on their part. I believe any claim at the point the binding contract is offered and/or accepted would have to be based on elio's knowingly promising that the would not meet that promise. In my mind, that could/would apply, whether the discrepancy was price, performance, standard equipment of whatever. On a realistic basis, I don't think anyone would sue over $1-2K on the price, or 5-10mpg, but I could be wrong.

I apologize if that does not clearly express my thinking.

thanks

 

[Nate_tx]

If you couldn't afford to lose the money, you shouldn't wrote them a check. That's how I look at it, and my stress level remains at "0" over whether it gets built, or not.

I am there with you. Twice while in Vegas drunk 3am heading up to my room with some solid winnings in my pocket I have taken a $500 chip and tossed it on a roulette table playing RED. 1st time I lost.. Disappointed yes - stressed no - it wasn't my house payment or rent there - it was from winning more than that previously at blackjack. 2nd time I did the exact same thing - tossed 1 $500 chip on the table on the way up to the room. Bam WON! Excited sure! Life changing no - I didnt need it to pay rent - house payment - car nothing. It was surplus cash invested/gambled and a surplus quick bump up. Same thing here with the Elio.. Will I be disappointed if it doesn't happen? SURE! Stressed? Not a bit.. It was disposable income... I read the fine print - laid my $$$ on the Elio Roulette Table. I think thats where we are at here. About a 50/50 shot IMHO. It's an enormous challenge to get a startup company off the ground and orders of magnitude more challenging to get a startup automotive company rolling.. js

 

[Rickb]

Elio doesn't irk me in the slightest.

 

[Stephen Workman]

I'm not a moderator here so to be perfectly clear, I'm not speaking for anyone but myself ..... in the last few days we've had a few new members who have come in from post 1 in an attack mode .... some have openly stated that they anticipate being banned .... some have been banned and rejoined .... to me that indicates a group effort .... I am an administrator/moderator for a large RV'ing forum and from time to time, I have to deal with such folks and lets just say they don't last long .... all I can say is the moderators here are much more patient and tolerant than most ..... I appreciate the job that they do and the service they perform for this community

If you don't like what someone has to say, can't you just hit the 'ignore' button? Stop giving them the fuel they seek to continue. I haven't read anything that sinks to the 'ban' level.

 

[Bruce-Boy47]

Last winter in Chambersburg, PA I spent over $1,800 in unexpected electrical costs due to the winter cold. This winter I am again spending extra money but am better prepared so the shock is much less. Last year I had head blots strip on my beloved Toyota Camry 4 cylinder (36 mpg- not hybrid) and it cost me over $1,200.
There is over $3,000 that I hated to spend. I RISKED $1,000 ON AN IDEA- ELIO. I am standing with Paul. What if I lose my money? Well, while I am far from affluent (could never afford a Slingshot or Spyder) I believe in Paul's vision and am willing to take a risk to get a great deal at a great price for great mileage and a lot of fun. Besides, I can no longer ride a touring bike due to my arthritis and mistrust trikes with wide rear configurations. Too unstable for me. Elio- I await your arrival- 2015 or 2016