Gov't Loans

[Elio Amazed]

In my state, we are being battered with constant commercials on TV and on the web from (you guessed it) the shale people.
The commercials say that if our state government has their way and they "raise" taxes on the shale profits, we'll all be unemployed.
The sky will fall, the atmosphere will catch fire, crime will run rampant and dogs and cats sleeping together will be the norm.

Ummm. I really think the worst that will happen is that they'll have to pay their accountants and IT for a few more hours work.
And they'll have to listen to a bit more bitching from John Q after they pass the increased overhead on to the consumers.
But evidently the bean counters have told them that the commercials will be cheaper and more PR friendly than the transition.

It's my understanding that in some areas, the industry doesn't pay a cent of tax at present.

 

[Snick]

I can tell you this much... This is NOT from some random source but straight from my own attempt to put solar cells on my house. So, here's a tale for the weary.

I'm in the military. (Yeah, yay me. Whatever.) Anyway, I move quite often. I'm in New Mexico and bought a house as that was the only way to get my kids in a decent school. It can be difficult to find high school, middle school, and elementary schools that are decent. My kids do very well in school and that's probably because both parents are very in tune with what they are doing and Daddy has made it abundantly clear that getting good grades is their job (in good courses - not underwater basket weaving). Back on topic.

My wife and I decided to put solar panels on our house to help stave off New Mexico's high electricity costs AND help the resale on the house which we figured we'd only be able to put 3 years in before having to move again. We contacted 3 different solar providers in the area. CST uses SunPower panels that put out 327 vs. 255 watts that their competition uses. Through my calculations (I'm a bit of an Excel wizard), I found that those solar panels were the most cost effective and would pay for themselves the fastest. This would let me put 24 panels on the house and cover 75% of our average electricity needs.

The overall price was $31,494.40 to have it done which would cost me $22,046.08 after the government incentives (YES, that's us taxpayers covering 30% of my solar cost.) They would produce $186 per month of solar leaving me with $83.87 per month to pay. Albuquerque would then pay me $34.67 for the electricity I generate even though I used it already for the first 8 years. My new electric bill would be $49.21 saving me $2,378.46 per year which means it would take me 9 years to break even. I'm leaving in 3 so I'd still owe about $15,000 when I go to sell the house. My real estate broker, who I actually like and trust, said that honestly, people don't understand solar enough to assign a value to it and thus houses with solar don't sell for more than houses without for the most part.

Someone here said that solar only gets a small percentage of incentives compared to Oil, coal, and nuclear power and that is probably right. It is right because there is so little solar out there in the first place and it is still expensive. Most people aren't in a position to sink $22,000 into something that doesn't pay off for 9 years. In reality, that same $22,000 put into an account earning 5% would bring in $1,100 a year forever. And THAT means that the cost advantage of my solar panels would take an effective 18 years to pay themselves off. So, I'll lose $3,835 that I could have saved by having panels on my house while living here but that $22,000 will earn me $1,100 a year for the next 40 years... and THAT is why Solar panels haven't caught on yet.

I don't think we can blame the government for not supporting solar enough as they are already picking up 30% of the bill. Oh, by the way, New Mexico would have covered another 10% but I'm ineligible because I own another house and the only way they'll cover 10% is if this was my only house. (try to move every 2-3 years and not end up with a house here or there)

I wish I could find the articles, but it has been said that if you actually PAID what a gallon of gasoline costs you at the pump, it would cost another $3,37/gallon for excess military (not the military that protects you and me...just the part that protects oil), + a few cents/gallon for direct subsidies.

That cost is largely hidden into your federal tax bill, instead, so most people don't see it.

I do realize gasoline and electric/thermal have quite different usage profiles and the comparison isn't meant to be perfectly exchangeable. I only offer it as food for thought. What if renewables had that massive, hidden subsidy? Wow.

 

[DAVID BROWER]

I wish I could find the articles, but it has been said that if you actually PAID what a gallon of gasoline costs you at the pump, it would cost another $3,37/gallon for excess military (not the military that protects you and me...just the part that protects oil), + a few cents/gallon for direct subsidies.

That cost is largely hidden into your federal tax bill, instead, so most people don't see it.

I do realize gasoline and electric/thermal have quite different usage profiles and the comparison isn't meant to be perfectly exchangeable. I only offer it as food for thought. What if renewables had that massive, hidden subsidy? Wow.

ALL THE MORE REASON TO EXPAND DOMESTIC PRODUCTION .

WHAT OIL SUBSIDIES ? THERE ARE NONE OTHER THAN
THE TAX DEDUCTIONS THAT ANY OTHER COMPANY GETS .

IN THE PLUS COLUMN , MORE MONEY GOES BACK TO THE GOVERNMENT
FROM OIL THAN ANY OTHER INDUSTRY . SUBSIDIES IN REVERSE ?

 

[satx]

WHAT OIL SUBSIDIES ?

Get Smart

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/oil-subsidies-renewable-energy-tax-breaks

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...m-idea-kill-the-oil-and-gas-subsidies/274121/

 

['lio]

THAT MAY BE SO BUT MOST OF IT ISN'T WIND OR SOLAR .

http://theenergycollective.com/robe...ck-germany-does-not-get-half-its-energy-solar

If you look at German electricity generation on a day to day basis, there are days when solar outperforms all other sources of electricity. That also goes to show what is possible and how much coal and oil are being conserved for more important things, such as manufacturing. Compared to your above chart, the data also has changed slightly in favor of renewables.

 

['lio]

wow… that chart tells it like it is.

If hi-tech Germany can't do it….. who can? At least in my lifetime.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In recent year, solar capacity in Germany doubled every 18 months. Solar panels are sharply decreasing in cost and are getting more efficient.

Saying Germany won’t be able to meet its (renewable) energy goals in the near future is like saying that we will never see many electric cars on the road. I would not hold my breath on either account.

 

[jdkeats]

OPEC could not come to agreements with each other because all of their revenues had dropped because of world pricing and supply out pacing demand. The US production increased and consumption decreased and
part of that supply was the US shale industry.
Smaller OPEC nations were reeling from the drop in revenue and wanted to restrict production to get the pricing back up.
The Saudi's broke rank and up'd production to make up for their loses.
OPEC meeting was about them trying to get their revenues back, not about breaking the US shale industry. They might have had an underscore to want to hurt the shale industry. What the really wanted was their revenue back.
Yes, everyone knows that oil dollars flow to wage war against us, and that is why we need to minimize our dollars to fund that cause.
Without oil, their would not be any ISIS/ISIL and the middle East would mostly be irrelevant. China and Japan need the oil the most.

 

[84mpg]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. In recent year, solar capacity in Germany doubled every 18 months. Solar panels are sharply decreasing in cost and are getting more efficient.

Saying Germany won’t be able to meet its (renewable) energy goals in the near future is like saying that we will never see many electric cars on the road. I would not hold my breath on either account.

According to this article, this writer says I'll be 151 years old before solar produces 50% of Germany's power ( if I read the article correctly).

http://theenergycollective.com/robe...ck-germany-does-not-get-half-its-energy-solar

I guess experts are a dime a dozen these days. Just pick a flavor or chart and go with it.

 

[jdkeats]

If you look at German electricity generation on a day to day basis, there are days when solar outperforms all other sources of electricity. That also goes to show what is possible and how much coal and oil are being conserved for more important things, such as manufacturing. Compared to your above chart, the data also has changed slightly in favor of renewables.

View attachment 5836

you are reading that chart wrong....
on the best day solar doesn't hit the 25,000 MW and the base line for Nuclear and fossil fuels is always over 25,000 MW

 

[grampi]

It's Fox, better fact check before you jump to that conclusion. lol

I think you have them confused with MSNBC...