Start Stop System

[Avards]

Good point. And, you are mostly right. But, in most start stop systems, the accessories are electrical so they'd keep running. The battery has to be a bit more robust to keep it going. During extended stops, the engine actually starts back up to save the battery. Mazda actually had a system that cleverly stopped one cylinder in just shy of top dead center position and when you lifted your foot off the brake, would fire that spark plug, kicking the motor backwards building pressure in a cylinder which then fired it around the right way. This starts the car faster then your foot can make it from the brake to the gas... unless you are heel to toeing it... Down South (I'm from Georgia), you'd definitely want the AC to keep running. You don't see many start stop vehicles in the states because the U.S. cycle of testing doesn't favor the system. In other words, the EPA MPG listed on the window wouldn't change much. In Europe (I happen to be in Germany for work this week), a lot of cars have the system. Their test cycle has 40 seconds of idling which favors the start stop system cars. So, the manufacturers make them. The guys I'm here with can't get used to the car's stopping (a Mercedes wagon and a Mini) so they disable the system. I don't mind it. Anyway, actual driving can see between 3.5 - 10% increase in mileage. The cost is about $300 (says Ford) per vehicle.

TY:

Thanks for your response.

In that response you state: "But, in most start stop systems, the accessories are electrical so they'd keep running. "

Does that include the a/c? Is the compressor electrically driven?

Again, I'm not the least familiar with the sss concept, so I'm using this venue to gather information.

I'm all too familiar with the cool temperatures in ATL. Worked at Dobbins for over a decade.

Thanks,

wr

 

[goofyone]

TY:

Thanks for your response.

In that response you state: "But, in most start stop systems, the accessories are electrical so they'd keep running. "

Does that include the a/c? Is the compressor electrically driven?

Again, I'm not the least familiar with the sss concept, so I'm using this venue to gather information.

I'm all too familiar with the cool temperatures in ATL. Worked at Dobbins for over a decade.

Thanks,

wr

Even in hot environments the a/c compressor can be off for a short time without noticeable difference. This actually happens in normal operation as in modern cars once the car is cooled the compressor cycles off and on.

 

[Avards]

Even in hot environments the a/c compressor can be off for a short time without noticeable difference. This actually happens in normal operation as in modern cars once the car is cooled the compressor cycles off and on.

Ty:

Of that, I'm quite aware. Raised in Baton Rouge LA area, so am quite familiar with the system. I'm wondering about how well the sss works in bumper-to-bumper traffic such as experienced going out of ATL and waiting in the exit lanes going onto Wade Green. Would you have to cycle the sss to the "off" position?

In Heidelberg Germany, with the cooler weather most of the year, I can see some potential the system. Here, I think it would, in much of this country, be an expensive and of little benefit item if included as standard equipment.

Again, thanks,

wr

 

[Paladin4Elio]

Only read the OP.

I voted YES because so many voted NO. LOL! But seriously, the OP should have said "eventually" or something like that since the most important thing is getting production going, making the Elios right, getting Elios sold, and making customers happy. If they do that, they'll be a success. If they're a success, then they'll think about options like a higher power option or a stop-start option.

Re. Start-stop: IMHO it doesn't make much sense. When coasting to a stop, your engine is basically idling, like when your are actually stopped and idling does not use much gas.

What makes sense, IMO, for the Elio is mild hybrid technology, like the Honda IMA. When you are coasting to a stop, or braking, mild hybrids RECOVER some of the energy (from fuel), you used to get up to that speed. It then uses it the next time you accelerate so that you don't have to burn as much gas to get back up to speed. Acceleration is what burns up a lot of fuel. Recovering and reusing kinetic energy to decrease the fuel burnt to get you back up to speed is what gives hybrids their greatly improved city mpg, not the stop-start aspect. Plus, mild hybrids help with low end torque so you go 0 - 30 faster: important with city driving to get away from what would be an accident in a truly slow car.

A full hybrid (like a Prius), is NOT the way to go for a Elio. The Elio tries to be simple, light, small and inexpensive. A full hybrid is none of these.

With Honda moving away from their IMA (integrated motor assist) mild hybrid technology, I think Elio would be able to license it at a good price. I'd recommend they offer a model with it in 3 or so years IF the Elio is a success in 2015. The Honda IMA is small (cf to the Prius setup). That would make it fit inside the current platform. In 4.5 years (3 years after Elio release), Li ion batteries will better (smaller and/or more power and cheaper), so they will fit into the Elio platform and not cost as much as now.

But first things first: the Elio has to get produced, sold and become a success. All else can wait until later.

 

[Ty]

Ty:

Of that, I'm quite aware. Raised in Baton Rouge LA area, so am quite familiar with the system. I'm wondering about how well the sss works in bumper-to-bumper traffic such as experienced going out of ATL and waiting in the exit lanes going onto Wade Green. Would you have to cycle the sss to the "off" position?

In Heidelberg Germany, with the cooler weather most of the year, I can see some potential the system. Here, I think it would, in much of this country, be an expensive and of little benefit item if included as standard equipment.

Again, thanks,

wr

I was noticing today from the back seat of the Mercedes wagon we.rented here that the SSS didn't turn off every time we stopped. It seemed to wait a few seconds and if we.we're creeping along, it seemed to keep the car running. Now, the AC in this car turns off when the engine stops and the car got warm enough that we disabled the system shortly. It was probably 80 out today. Ford said on that site that the added expense of the start stop system was $250 - $300 per vehicle.

 

[JDub]

My commute is 27 miles one way of which 2/3 interstate the rest a parkway that has several roundabouts and I encounter only 3 stop lights. This type of commute seems to be common. So while a stop start system may help some the expense would not be justifiable as a standard item.

 

[Paladin4Elio]

What makes sense, IMO, for the Elio is mild hybrid technology, like the Honda IMA. When you are coasting to a stop, or braking, mild hybrids RECOVER some of the energy (from fuel), you used to get up to that speed. It then uses it the next time you accelerate so that you don't have to burn as much gas to get back up to speed. Acceleration is what burns up a lot of fuel. Recovering and reusing kinetic energy to decrease the fuel burnt to get you back up to speed is what gives hybrids their greatly improved city mpg, not the stop-start aspect. Plus, mild hybrids help with low end torque so you go 0 - 30 faster: important with city driving to get away from what would be an accident in a truly slow car.

...

With Honda moving away from their IMA (integrated motor assist) mild hybrid technology, I think Elio would be able to license it at a good price. I'd recommend they offer a model with it in 3 or so years IF the Elio is a success in 2015. The Honda IMA is small (cf to the Prius setup). That would make it fit inside the current platform. In 4.5 years (3 years after Elio release), Li ion batteries will better (smaller and/or more power and cheaper), so they will fit into the Elio platform and not cost as much as now.

I should mention that GM's eAssist mild hybrid system would also be worth looking into to license. IIRC, the latest version provides up to 100 lbs-ft torque.

But, with any version of electric hybrid, the size, weight, and energy capacity of the battery area critical and conflicting parameters.

 

[Mark Ambrose]

My fiance's Lexus ES 300 hybrid has a start/stop system and it is a bit disconcerting when you have to punch it from a standstill to get across two lanes of oncoming traffic. There is a definite lag between my foot hitting the floor and the engine starting and spooling up. For that reason I wait for longer gaps in the traffic when driving this car. I can see the advantage in city driving, but you have to adjust accordingly.

 

[Joshua Caldwell]

My fiance's Lexus ES 300 hybrid has a start/stop system and it is a bit disconcerting when you have to punch it from a standstill to get across two lanes of oncoming traffic. There is a definite lag between my foot hitting the floor and the engine starting and spooling up. For that reason I wait for longer gaps in the traffic when driving this car. I can see the advantage in city driving, but you have to adjust accordingly.

Drove a rental like that for a week, ended up shifting to 1st and using slight gas + brake at same time so it was ready when I needed to rabbit.

 

[Ty]

Interesting thread! A lot of knowledgeable people here. Like many here, I check my mpg's on every fill up.For the sake of my family, I've owned a few mini vans...hard to "hyper mile" an automatic, especially when the odometer stops moving when the engine stops. Some observations between 2 that I owned: 2000 Windstar w/80k miles- best I ever got was 23mpg, with 5 people and luggage on a hitch rack. Trans started messing up at 135K miles. We got saved when a storm dropped a tree on it. With the insurance money, we got a 2000 Chevy Venture (Warner Bros) with 93k miles. Same 5 people (kids were bigger, tho), hitch rack & luggage on the back. With my wife driving (with cruise) it got 25 to 27mpg. Me driving (no cruise), We got a best of 31.2 ! and I could get 30 regularly. We drove it to over 230K miles. Blown head gasket "forced retirement". I plan to fix it.

My hope for the Elio is, they will get it into production, and make change later. There is sooo much improvement possible, that is hidden from us (by the big three & big oil) because of greed, My hat goes off to EM! Everyone needs to watch "GASHOLE"

I'm not su why "the big three" would hide a competitive advantage... makes no sense for them to do that, does it?