Start Stop System

[outsydthebox]

I'm not su why "the big three" would hide a competitive advantage... makes no sense for them to do that, does it?

Did you watch the documentary?

gashole (the movie)

 

[carzes]

The real question as I see it is does s/s make sense for MOST people? Sure they can set up a test track scenario to show it helps, but the real world is not a test track. If we were to take a representative sample like say, US, and average our typical amount of time STOPPED during our commutes we could run some math and see how much sense it would make. So, let's get out our stopwatch apps and start timing the amound of time we spend idleing on a typical day in situations where it would make sense for the car to turn itself off.
personally I can already tell you on my commute it's only about five or ten seconds per day, but I'll time it to get real data.

 

[skygazer6033]

The real question is what is the Elio's fuel flow at idle? At 80 mpg the fuel flow at cruise is only a little over 5/8 ounce per mile so at that rate 5 minutes of idle would probably be about a tablespoon of fuel. (Keep in mind these calculations were done in my head so accuracy may be in question but you get the point). Bottom line is S/S may be worth it on a car that gets 25 mpg but 80 mpg I sincerely doubt it's worth the effort and expense.

 

[azurehenfruit]

About a year ago, we visited our friend, a retired BMW engineer who lives in Germany. He was driving a small diesel BMW, and after some city driving, I became aware that the car has a stop-start system. To me it was a new thing, and on the surface, a great economy idea. It appeared to work well, in that there was hardly a lag on pulling away from a stop.

Immediately, I thought about the potential fuel savings if my 396 Chevelle had such an option, as it really sucks the gas through at an idle.

On further thought, I wondered how much fuel the little BMW diesel engine was really saving as we drove through Munich, and whether the start-stop was really worth having.

I believe the same line of reasoning holds true for the Elio. Will a 3 cylinder, 1 liter engine waste enough gas idling at stops to effect a payback for its initial cost, plus warrant the potential of something else to breakdown in the future?

 

[Ty]

About a year ago, we visited our friend, a retired BMW engineer who lives in Germany. He was driving a small diesel BMW, and after some city driving, I became aware that the car has a stop-start system. To me it was a new thing, and on the surface, a great economy idea. It appeared to work well, in that there was hardly a lag on pulling away from a stop.

Immediately, I thought about the potential fuel savings if my 396 Chevelle had such an option, as it really sucks the gas through at an idle.

On further thought, I wondered how much fuel the little BMW diesel engine was really saving as we drove through Munich, and whether the start-stop was really worth having.

I believe the same line of reasoning holds true for the Elio. Will a 3 cylinder, 1 liter engine waste enough gas idling at stops to effect a payback for its initial cost, plus warrant the potential of something else to breakdown in the future?

Good question. Ford said, at one point, Start-stop adds $295 to the price of a new vehicle. Greencarreport says that Ford will have Start-stop on 70% of thier vehicles by 2017.

Stop-start technology likely won't dramatically improve the Fusion's EPA fuel economy numbers, because the EPA test generally doesn't favor stop-start cars over conventional ones, but Ford says that fuel consumption will drop by somewhere between 3.5 and 10 percent, depending on a driver's style and commute. The feature will obviously help drivers who commute in stop-and-go traffic more than those facing long treks on the highway

Here's the link for the above info: http://wot.motortrend.com/stopstart...costs-295-possibly-saves-you-1100-185943.html

If you are worried about the time to start the car up after a stop: The i-Stop system, Mazda’s first start stop system, detects which piston is in the best position to restart quickest, which is the one in the combustion stroke phase, where air and fuel are in the cylinder, ready to be ignited. The mixture in this cylinder is ignited by the spark plug, forcing that piston down, and with partial-assistance from the starter motor, results in a near instantaneous engine restart time of 0.35 seconds.

 

[Brainmatter]

Ty:

Of that, I'm quite aware. Raised in Baton Rouge LA area, so am quite familiar with the system. I'm wondering about how well the sss works in bumper-to-bumper traffic such as experienced going out of ATL and waiting in the exit lanes going onto Wade Green. Would you have to cycle the sss to the "off" position?

In Heidelberg Germany, with the cooler weather most of the year, I can see some potential the system. Here, I think it would, in much of this country, be an expensive and of little benefit item if included as standard equipment.

Again, thanks,

wr

Just wanted to add some details for you as I own both types of hybrids.
I have a 2011 MKZ (Fusion) hybrid and the system is transparent. It is a full hybrid. No lag from a start, no lack of A/C in the summer or heat in the winter due to electrically and mechanically driven A/C compressor and coolant circulation pumps. As you can imagine this costs much more than a simple stop start system. Wonderful system. No one knows it's a hybrid except that it is so quiet at 'idle'...because the engine is off.
I also own a 2011 Honda CRZ hybrid. It has a glorified stop start system referred to as a hybrid because it does contribute to powering the vehicle, but not from a stop. It has an awful lag from a stop. Granted, it is less than a half second, but when you have any delay or hesitation from the time you hit the gas to the time the engine starts to propel the car, you feel it. Every .01 of a second is amplified. It takes some getting used to, but the longer I've had the car the more it annoys me. Living in Minnesota, summers can be very hot/humid and winters extremely cold; we get it all. When the engine shuts off at stops it can get uncomfortable in the car very quickly due to lack of heat or cooling. The only good thing is you can 'jump start' the car and have it run by creeping forward just a bit or touching the throttle, then it won't shut back off until the next full stop.
Anyway.. for me, a simple stop/start is the only alternative here due to true or even mild hybrid costs (batteries, regenerative braking, all the expensive modules and controls for such etc. etc. etc..). Then as others have pointed out; a 1.0l tuned specifically for MPG in a light vehicle at idle will consume very little fuel, so not much point in S/S. In the end knowing what I know first hand about such systems and knowing what my peeves are; If it did have a stop start system, fine, as long as there is a way to bypass the option with a switch or some such because I would use it probably never.

 

[Ty]

Just wanted to add some details for you as I own both types of hybrids.
I have a 2011 MKZ (Fusion) hybrid and the system is transparent. It is a full hybrid. No lag from a start, no lack of A/C in the summer or heat in the winter due to electrically and mechanically driven A/C compressor and coolant circulation pumps. As you can imagine this costs much more than a simple stop start system. Wonderful system. No one knows it's a hybrid except that it is so quiet at 'idle'...because the engine is off.
I also own a 2011 Honda CRZ hybrid. It has a glorified stop start system referred to as a hybrid because it does contribute to powering the vehicle, but not from a stop. It has an awful lag from a stop. Granted, it is less than a half second, but when you have any delay or hesitation from the time you hit the gas to the time the engine starts to propel the car, you feel it. Every .01 of a second is amplified. It takes some getting used to, but the longer I've had the car the more it annoys me. Living in Minnesota, summers can be very hot/humid and winters extremely cold; we get it all. When the engine shuts off at stops it can get uncomfortable in the car very quickly due to lack of heat or cooling. The only good thing is you can 'jump start' the car and have it run by creeping forward just a bit or touching the throttle, then it won't shut back off until the next full stop.
Anyway.. for me, a simple stop/start is the only alternative here due to true or even mild hybrid costs (batteries, regenerative braking, all the expensive modules and controls for such etc. etc. etc..). Then as others have pointed out; a 1.0l tuned specifically for MPG in a light vehicle at idle will consume very little fuel, so not much point in S/S. In the end knowing what I know first hand about such systems and knowing what my peeves are; If it did have a stop start system, fine, as long as there is a way to bypass the option with a switch or some such because I would use it probably never.

I fully get that it doesn't make as much sense as it would on my 6.7L diesel. However, I have time to think about these things while sitting in traffic. Usually, one day a week, I-40 turns into a parking lot for a few minutes of my normal 35 minute drive. Then, the wait to get on base can be as long as 20 minutes. That's a vehicle sitting at idle for almost half of my daily commute. That has to add up. Granted, the extra cost of hybrids is hard to overcome and the Elio will probably be no exception but I'd be willing to pay a little more than I recoup just to help save the US some oil imports.

 

[AriLea]

Start-Stop.

I have to agree with Ty, it's a small benefit. This is all very academic, and speculative, not that I personally mind that. Fi it doesn't satify both the goal of low cost, low investment and 84mpg, EM will not be doing it year 1. But once the volume numbers of EM sales support it, and the cost of a very comprehensive system is spread across the population, then why not? So long as it's unobtrusive or has a lock out. But at that point maybe a Prius style Hybrid would be available, ahm, err, as an option.

 

[ncarter124]

No. 84/49 projected mpg isn't good enough? Let's just power the car with ferrets, that way it uses no gas at all.

Just leave it as is, keep the cost down and the chance to get it to production higher. If they want to add it later as an option, fine... I won't get it. It would be a good option for some people I guess, but I don't see it saving a lot based on the tiny fuel delivery it would get at idle. Call me old fashioned, but I will avoid a car with that technology to the ends of the earth.

 

[carzes]

The real question is what is the Elio's fuel flow at idle? At 80 mpg the fuel flow at cruise is only a little over 5/8 ounce per mile so at that rate 5 minutes of idle would probably be about a tablespoon of fuel. (Keep in mind these calculations were done in my head so accuracy may be in question but you get the point). Bottom line is S/S may be worth it on a car that gets 25 mpg but 80 mpg I sincerely doubt it's worth the effort and expense.

I was figuring that at 60 mph if it got 84 mpg that would mean 1.4 hours at highwayspeed per gallon of gas. I kinda figured maybe 10% of that rate just to throw a ballpark number on it for it's at idle consumption rate? That would mean it would idle at 14 hours per gallon. I know we dont have any real numbers, but is that way unrealistic?