The Aftermath

[Maurtis]

Where did all the money go? How can the Sondors be developed so fast and at less cost?
We all did lose.

People keep saying how much faster Sondors is developing a prototype than Elio. From what I can see, Elio Motors was founded in October 2009 and debuted the P2 (first drive-able prototype) in February 2010. Unless those dates are off, not really seeing how much faster Sondors is going. What Sondors has in their favor, Storm is a "good enough" kind of guy and will not be re-engineering the vehicle over and over and over trying to get it just right. From the Elio P2 - E1C we have seen pretty much two entire structural redesigns.

Also, the Sondors prototype is not driving yet. For all we know the single rear drive wheel might be a nightmare on the road and require re-engineering as well.

So from first prototype to first prototype, Elio is still looking pretty good.

FWIW, I am invested in both and rooting for both!

 

[Rob Croson]

Where did all the money go? How can the Sondors be developed so fast and at less cost?
We all did lose.

What Sondors has is a bespoke prototype. That's it. Any idiot could get a bespoke prototype made in a couple months, given a million dollars. There are plenty of shops willing to take your money. (I'm not saying Sondors is an idiot, just that having a prototype is no special challenge.)

The challenge isn't in making a prototype. The challenge is converting that custom prototype in a manufacturable product. Especially if you are going for high volume, low cost sales like Elio. Otherwise you end up with a half-assed, poorly engineered product that is horribly inefficient to manufacture, with crappy reliability, and certainly overpriced.

If you're delivering low-volume, individually assembled vehicles, the setup process would be completely different than setting up a continuous, high-volume assembly line. There are trade offs to be made. High-volume assembly lines cost more to set up, but yield huge savings in efficiency and speed. This enables you to produce a large volume of product and sell it inexpensively, while still making a profit on each. The downside is that it takes a huge investment to get started. Low volume hand, individually made vehicles let you get started faster, and with less investment, but you have the down side that each item produced is more expensive, and you produce less of them. That means each piece produced will have a higher price.

Elio and Sondors chose different paths. That doesn't mean one picked the right path, and one picked the wrong path. It means they have different end goals. Sondors wants to make a few hundred, maybe a few thousand of his cars. Elio wants to make a few million.

 

[stts]

Forget about the Sonders for several years. They are not quite where Elio WAS way back when he was touring with a Geo engine car. A go cart that got around but had no finished systems of its own. Sonders needs to engineer all electric HVAC that works bug free in the hot and cold states. They also need to engineer all the other systems that standard cars like ELIO already include. Theres no mention of Sonders airbag systems and the charger and AC system is EXTRA on top of their "proposed" sale price that is impossible already. This is an import that Trump will tarriff at the border to make American made more competetive. And they WONT be making these electric cars in quantity that anybody can get in any reasonable wait time. There just isnt enough battery supply to reserve anything affordable to such a small fry car maker. Tesla is so pinched by lack of battery supply that they are building their own battery factory. China is ramping up their own battery systems only to make battery walls for their own clean energy programs. Sonders is just too expensive for what they intend to give, and its still many years away. Once they realize the rear wheel sliding out in the rain will get people killed, they will go to a more expensive front wheel drive design.

So you may as well put $100 down on an Elio. It is several generations along on design and has all the systems that you expect in a new car. And it is easy to work on too. Your neighborhood mechanic will be useless when Sonders problems crop up. Electrical problems when high current connections go bad. And the battery voltages on Sonders will be a staggeringly dangerous 300vDC with all the warning stickers associated with it. So ELIO is a practical $8000 car that will happen as soon as they raise production money, versus a Sonders that will likely cost $20grand with very limited range when the winters turn cold and the summers turn burning hot. And when the humidity messes up the electrical connections, you will play hell trying to find convenient Sonders service.

So thats why an ELIO still makes sense for the next several years. Gas certainly wont be getting cheaper in the years to come. But Tesla will certainly be looking to be making an even cheaper car with all their resourses that would challenge a Sonders by the time they finally get production going. Same with the Chinese. They are working on cheap electric cars too so $20grand fully equiped 4 wheel cars are not too far off. Sonders is just too small starting out too late and stuck with building a wheel from scratch. Tesla and the other big car makers own the patents and Sonders will likely get sued to stop their production. Elio technology is paid for and unsueable.

NOTE : POST EDITED TO REMOVE INFLAMMATORY POLITICAL COMMENTARY

 

[Elio Amazed]

People keep saying how much faster Sondors is developing a prototype than Elio. From what I can see, Elio Motors was founded in October 2009 and debuted the P2 (first drive-able prototype) in February 2010.

And then except for some substandard engineering and substantial COSMETIC changes...

THEY COMPLETELY STALLED FOR SIX YEARS.

It was only in the last year that they finally applied some good outsourced engineering.

Oh, and spent $140M in the mean time. Looks like quite a substantial difference to me.

stts... "Sonders will likely get sued to stop their production." LOL. Watch and learn.

 

[Maurtis]

And then except for some substandard engineering and substantial COSMETIC changes...

THEY COMPLETELY STALLED FOR SIX YEARS.

It was only in the last year that they finally applied some good outsourced engineering.

Oh, and spent $140M in the mean time. Looks like quite a substantial difference to me.

stts... "Sonders will likely get sued to stop their production." LOL. Watch and learn.

Oh do not get me wrong, I am not saying that Elio spent their time or money wisely. I am just saying people thinking Sondors is making a first prototype in record time is not quite right. And there is a huge difference between a running prototype and production ready model. Sondors has a long way to go.

And for them getting sued to stop production, I am not seeing where that would come from. They are are using a hub motor that is already in production and likely Chinese controller and battery packs, not seeing a ground for lawsuit. And if they do keep costs under $20k, I doubt Tesla is actually interested in the economy tier of the market.

 

[Elio Amazed]

Oh do not get me wrong, I am not saying that Elio spent their time or money wisely. I am just saying people thinking Sondors is making a first prototype in record time is not quite right. And there is a huge difference between a running prototype and production ready model. Sondors has a long way to go.

And for them getting sued to stop production, I am not seeing where that would come from. They are are using a hub motor that is already in production and likely Chinese controller and battery packs, not seeing a ground for lawsuit. And if they do keep costs under $20k, I doubt Tesla is actually interested in the economy tier of the market.

Eye, we'll have to see how their boat floats.

 

[stts]

And then except for some substandard engineering and substantial COSMETIC changes...

COMPLETELY STALLED FOR SIX YEARS.

It was only in the last year that they finally applied some good outsourced engineering.

Oh, and spent $140M in the mean time. Looks like quite a substantial difference to me.

stts... Watch and learn.

I been watching and I been learning and I want to buy stock.
Haters will always completely exagerate greatness into crap to try to keep their hate going. Elio has not been completely stalled. He has "produced" several revisions of his car, each even better than the previous. Elio has worked out a portfolio of agreements with the dozens of part makers that he plans to use on his car. Elio has secured a monster factory suitable for his production goals. Even Tesla says their factory will be very pressed to produce the quantity no where near what Elio says his plant will produce. Elio has ran so much advertising that he has generated way more reservations in his adverse situation than Sonders has come up with. ELIO has nearly $500Million in preorders he can collect on after he get production running. Then when cars really hit the streets, the interest and preorders will ramp back up again. Factories, supplier lists, advertising, and huge preorders just dont come for free. Thats all part of the costly process of building a new car. The pit bull of expenses will eventually chomp down on Sonders's butt. They are just too small for it to happen yet. And they got way too many technical unknowns ahead of them that Elio has already resolved.

NOTE : post edited to bring some comments into compliance with forum standards

 

[Elio Amazed]

I been watching and I been learning and I want to buy stock.
You haters will always completely exagerate greatness into crap to try to keep your hate going. Elio has not been completely stalled. He has "produced" several revisions of his car, each even better than the previous. Elio has worked out a portfolio of agreements with the dozens of part makers that he plans to use on his car. Elio has secured a monster factory suitable for his production goals. Even Tesla says their factory will be very pressed to produce the quantity no where near what Elio says his plant will produce. Elio has ran so much advertising that he has generated way more reservations in his adverse situation than Sonders has come up with. ELIO has nearly $500Million in preorders he can collect on after he get production running. Then when cars really hit the streets, the interest and preorders will ramp back up again. Factories, supplier lists, advertising, and huge preorders just dont come for free. Thats all part of the costly process of building a new car. The pit bull of expenses will eventually chomp down on Sonders's butt. They are just too small for it to happen yet. And they got way too many technical unknowns ahead of them that Elio has already resolved.

Yeah Ok. What's your SIL again? To each his own. It's not your spirit I question... It's your "facts" that I'm all over here.

welcome to the site.


NOTE : inflammatory comment removed

 

[stts]

Oh do not get me wrong, I am not saying that Elio spent their time or money wisely. I am just saying people thinking Sondors is making a first prototype in record time is not quite right. And there is a huge difference between a running prototype and production ready model. Sondors has a long way to go.

And for them getting sued to stop production, I am not seeing where that would come from. They are are using a hub motor that is already in production and likely Chinese controller and battery packs, not seeing a ground for lawsuit. And if they do keep costs under $20k, I doubt Tesla is actually interested in the economy tier of the market.

There is more to electric cars than the motor and batteries. They are already stuck paying the royalty markup by buying somebody elses motor design. They will be in lawsuit territory as they try to make efficient battery heating and AC systems, if they try to incorporate brake regeneration, theres patents for that, everything that helps to make batteries last longer has a patent associated with it. Toyota had to license Teslas electric designs till they staffed their own research department to try to do it without paying the markup. Electric cars that make it to production will face dire scrutiny and almost certain lawsuits by Tesla and the other car makers. They just have sooo many patents on everything they been doing. Sonders dont have the know how to figure out better ways than the patents and lawsuit would still come even if they did. Lawsuits to bog them down or put them out of business.

 

[Elio Amazed]

There is more to electric cars than the motor and batteries. They are already stuck paying the royalty markup by buying somebody elses motor design. They will be in lawsuit territory as they try to make efficient battery heating and AC systems, if they try to incorporate brake regeneration, theres patents for that, everything that helps to make batteries last longer has a patent associated with it. Toyota had to license Teslas electric designs till they staffed their own research department to try to do it without paying the markup. Electric cars that make it to production will face dire scrutiny and almost certain lawsuits by Tesla and the other car makers. They just have sooo many patents on everything they been doing. Sonders dont have the know how to figure out better ways than the patents and lawsuit would still come even if they did. Lawsuits to bog them down or put them out of business.

To demonstrate how off-base this is, Regen is built into every wholesale battery/controller system on the market. Nuff said.