The Elio Engine

[tonyspumoni]

RKing,

I'll take a good guess anytime and this is a good one.

 

[JEBar]

Just guessin here

I would like to think that they are testing the validity of using liners in production also (like VVT). Again "guessing" based on very old data, but I prefer iron liners due to the "time proven" aspect. urability testing will include spraybores if that is going to production,

per info from Jerome at this weekend's tour stop :

According to Jerome, the engine on the dyno, has the flame cylinders not sleeves.

I'm happy to see the dyno testing being done with the flame spray .... hopefully, it will come through with flying colors .... if not, it would appear wise to figure it out early, adapt, and go on

Jim

 

[RKing]

Thanks for the update, the pictue of the castings seemed to show iron liners. That adds to my suspecion that there has been much more done(engine testing) that has not been made public And that is a good thing, if so.
Agree on the early evaluation, the plant equipment for liner insertion and related machining is vastly different than for spraybore. And I would hope the equipment is "speced and on order". I wonder if they will outsource the spraybore? I was told the engine would be machined and assembled in Shreaveport.

 

[goofyone]

Can someone clarify for me if is normal in 21st century ICE design to have so many unknowns at this point? Sleeves versus plasma coating? Two cam lobes versus one? Seems to me like with current modeling capabilities and the massive expertise with the basic design this should be easier to get right before testing rather than as a consequence of testing. On the other hand Elio has been open during the design process in a way that no other technology provider is, so maybe this is commonplace. Or, I'm just a tool who doesn't read others' posts well enough to know that these details HAVE been decided, and that testing is for establishing other parameters. Either way, I'd be most grateful if anyone could set me straight(er).

I believe we are just seeing confusion from those of us on the outside looking in who really do not have a handle on all the steps it takes to fully develop and certify an engine for production. I have yet to see or hear anything indicating that Elio/IAV are questioning their design at all and instead when asked about the version of the engine we were shown with pressed in liners and no VVT we were told that this was simply to provide the IAV engineers with a basis for comparison. I believe unless we hear anything more on the matter we should take this at face value and try not to read any more into this different configuration than its stated purpose of providing a baseline for comparison.

Elio/IAV have laid out the planned engine configuration for quite some time now and have done a lot of engineering work around that configuration so chances are very good that the final engine will be very similar with some minor tweaks for optimization.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Can someone clarify for me if is normal in 21st century ICE design to have so many unknowns at this point? Sleeves versus plasma coating? Two cam lobes versus one? Seems to me like with current modeling capabilities and the massive expertise with the basic design this should be easier to get right before testing rather than as a consequence of testing. On the other hand Elio has been open during the design process in a way that no other technology provider is, so maybe this is commonplace. Or, I'm just a tool who doesn't read others' posts well enough to know that these details HAVE been decided, and that testing is for establishing other parameters. Either way, I'd be most grateful if anyone could set me straight(er).

It actually becomes more complicated to make an engine over time. These complications come from better modeling and a greater understanding of the many MANY factors that must be considered in the manufacture, building and maintenance of an ICE engine.

Make an engine: That's relatively easy.
Make an engine that is inexpensive, reliable, easy to build, easy to maintain, efficient, and appropriate for the vehicle it is installed.

Every component is a compromise. THERE IS NO EXCEPTION!!

For example: Installing an air conditioning compressor.
You will have to find a mounting location that will not interfere with anything else, where it will be easily accessible for maintenance, add structure to the engine for a bracket, assure that the location will not cause any weaknesses or vibrations or create an arm that might stress a structure or an engine mount. Then you must consider the load on the engine and how it might bog the engine down at lower RPM's and adjust the idle for the extra load..... and so on and so on.

This is a SINGLE component. And it add a massive amount of complication.

Modeling is not magic. It has limitations. It will show you certain pitfalls but ask ANY engineer experienced in CAD, modeling MUST be tested.

From what I have observed, the design team has thinking the process though from building to maintaining, to modification.
This is not going to be just a good car for commuting. Elio will be a hobbyist's wet dream.

 

[JEBar]

For example: Installing an air conditioning compressor.
You will have to find a mounting location that will not interfere with anything else, where it will be easily accessible for maintenance,

From what I have observed, the design team has thinking the process though from building to maintaining, to modification.
This is not going to be just a good car for commuting. Elio will be a hobbyist's wet dream.

all too often, the concept of designing an engine (and most other components as well) so that they don't interfere with anything else and are easily accessible for maintenance has to occupy a minor, minor, minor line on the list of priorities .... I hope you are right about it being a prime concern for EM

Jim

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

all too often, the concept of designing an engine (and most other components as well) so that they don't interfere with anything else and are easily accessible for maintenance has to occupy a minor, minor, minor line on the list of priorities .... I hope you are right about it being a prime concern for EM

Jim

In a recent video, I saw one of the designers comment on how the oil pan was re designed to accommodate easy and complete oil change.
It shows the difference between rushing a product to market and making a truly great product.
it also shows me that they are using their time wisely. While some are taking time to design and validate longer development cycle components and systems, other are refining the details. When the engine is ready, the rest of the vehicle will be more refined.

Note:
Component: like oil pan, alternator, etc
System: entire engine, full breaking system, etc/

 

[skygazer6033]

Since the IAV engine is not a "clean sheet" design but an improved version of the Suzuki G10 much of the design is already proven. Mounts, bracketry, hardware and such shouldn't need a lot of testing. Only the things that have been changed will need a thorough shake down.

 

[tonyspumoni]

I believe we are just seeing confusion from those of us on the outside looking in who really do not have a handle on all the steps it takes to fully develop and certify an engine for production. I have yet to see or hear anything indicating that Elio/IAV are questioning their design at all and instead when asked about the version of the engine we were shown with pressed in liners and no VVT we were told that this was simply to provide the IAV engineers with a basis for comparison. I believe unless we hear anything more on the matter we should take this at face value and try not to read any more into this different configuration than its stated purpose of providing a baseline for comparison.

Elio/IAV have laid out the planned engine configuration for quite some time now and have done a lot of engineering work around that configuration so chances are very good that the final engine will be very similar with some minor tweaks for optimization.

Good answer.

 

[dgruis]

Good answer.

Hmmm... Can't Elio just open a box and pull out a pre-made engine which uses OLD technology?

We should leave thinking and planning to less developed countries.