The "wait And See Club"

[WilliamH]

look, i personally have never designed a vehicle for production. i am not saying i know what is best. i am speculating on what i think they could do, and why it might make sense. remember, the 25 E series vehicles was announced before it was announced that they brought Roush on board. it is way more than reasonable to think the specific plan might have changed after they started consulting with a company that has been through bringing vehicles to production in the past. a lot of plans change when you talk to someone who's done it before.

there are a lot of ways they could achieve testing with fewer vehicles, i won't speculate specific hypothetical. at this point, from my understanding, the design is pretty much done... these are primarily for finalizing everything so that the factory line can be set up. less than 25 might seem like "half ass", but it might be overkill. i don't know for sure, and i doubt you know for sure. it might be especially smart, if enough money can be saved to help ensure the first 100 are actually built and sold. (which should lead to ATVM approval, which means elios for all of us). we have not heard much about the e series in quite some time, so one can only speculate. the idea that I'm hopeful they are doing something more likely to get these things on the road is "second guessing" them, is ludicrous. if any thing, i might be letting my optimism get out of check. I'm not saying "they should have", I'm saying "i hope they ARE". not sure why there is so much negative reaction to any idea that has not been officially released in a PR.

i have been involved in several factory startups, but for a different industry. i can tell you that starting with a small slow production to work out the kinks, is always the best approach. you can exercise and test those machines for months... but until they are doing what you really want them to do, there are problems you will not find. I'm guessing Roush keyed them into this, and that is a big part of why the factory will only start with the 100 fleet vehicles. this was a terrible PR move, but good decision to not start production full bore from the start. it also gives them a great OPPORTUNITY to further reduce the reliance on the E series builds, by doing more of the finalization on the factory floor, if they chose to do that.

You started by "second guessing" Elio.
You moved on to making unsubstantiated assumptions on why the DOE (a government agency) might or might not do something. (anything -- Think VA)
You brought in Roush which does a great job of upgrading stock platform vehicles. (for an extra $11 grand) (that means that my F150 with Roush upgrades would cost about $66K in today's market.)
The 25 E series are not 25 one offs. They simulate production. That means jigs to standardize all frame parts. standardized body panels. Detailed parts lists and spec sheets. All the stuff needed whether it's 10 or 110 test vehicles. And all put together the same way. Oh, and a suppliers list and contracts with the suppliers.
Then you can start your test run of 100 on the actual assembly line.
And incidentally, enough parts to build those 100.
Here's a little something that has been floating around large companies for at least the last 40 or more years.

The Plan......
In the beginning was the Plan

and then came the assumptions
and the assumptions were without form
and the plan was completely without substance
and the darkness was upon the faces of the employees

and they spake amongst themselves, saying
"It is a crock of shit and it stinks!"

and the employees went unto their supervisors, saying
"It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof."

and the supervisors went unto their division managers, saying
"It is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength."

and the division managers went unto their system managers, saying
"It contains that which aids plant growth and it is very strong."

and the general manager went unto the Board, saying
"It promotes growth and is very powerful."

and the general manager went unto the Board, saying
"This new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this
organization."

and the Board looked upon the plan and saw that it was good
and the Plan became Policy

This is how shit happens.

 

[Buckeyejake]

Ain't that the truth !

 

[Rickb]

You started by "second guessing" Elio.
You moved on to making unsubstantiated assumptions on why the DOE (a government agency) might or might not do something. (anything -- Think VA)
You brought in Roush which does a great job of upgrading stock platform vehicles. (for an extra $11 grand) (that means that my F150 with Roush upgrades would cost about $66K in today's market.)
The 25 E series are not 25 one offs. They simulate production. That means jigs to standardize all frame parts. standardized body panels. Detailed parts lists and spec sheets. All the stuff needed whether it's 10 or 110 test vehicles. And all put together the same way. Oh, and a suppliers list and contracts with the suppliers.
Then you can start your test run of 100 on the actual assembly line.
And incidentally, enough parts to build those 100.
Here's a little something that has been floating around large companies for at least the last 40 or more years.

The Plan......
In the beginning was the Plan

and then came the assumptions
and the assumptions were without form
and the plan was completely without substance
and the darkness was upon the faces of the employees

and they spake amongst themselves, saying
"It is a crock of shit and it stinks!"

and the employees went unto their supervisors, saying
"It is a pail of dung and none may abide the odor thereof."

and the supervisors went unto their division managers, saying
"It is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength."

and the division managers went unto their system managers, saying
"It contains that which aids plant growth and it is very strong."

and the general manager went unto the Board, saying
"It promotes growth and is very powerful."

and the general manager went unto the Board, saying
"This new plan will actively promote the growth and efficiency of this
organization."

and the Board looked upon the plan and saw that it was good
and the Plan became Policy

This is how shit happens.

Actually, EM's plan is based on assumptions.........validated and qualified by "forward thinkIng statements". We may all agree that it's time to make shit happen however they choose to do it.

 

[Frim]

Actually, EM's plan is based on assumptions.........qualified by "forward thinkIng statements". We may all agree that it's time to make shit happen however they choose to do it.

According to Jim Kern, Task Research, "There is a time in the life of every project when you fire the engineers and go into production". We built 3 Back to the Future Cars in 3 months, 19 in the following 3 months, and 3 in the final 2 weeks. (Back to the Future Ride, Disney World, Tokyo). There is a learning curve at every work station. Because there is a sequence of operations, the learning curve can not be experienced at all stations simultaneously. I think that 25 cars may be an optimum number to achieve a production car. There are modifications inherent in the learning curve that aren't foreseen by the engineers. I agree it is time to make shit happen.