What To Do With The Gas?

[xtspode]

Teleportation would be nice sometimes.....
but the journey is where a lot of the fun is at. Instant everything these days is starting to wear on me. We learn and absorb information and experience based a lot on time. We need to savor the victories and the steps as we learn. We also need to evaluate the losses and the fails too. The fuel that we use is kind of secondary in a lot of ways. Yes the oil is a finite quantity, and electric generation may sound free and clean, but solar panels and windmills are still pretty expensive and the chemicals in the batteries are pretty toxic and they don't last forever either. We have a lot of batteries dumped into our landfills. We are going to have a lot more soon. Batteries shorting internally and dumping all their energy at once has burned up a few phones and computers on 5-19 volt systems. How about when we get the 48-96 volt systems? I like the electric motor, but I hate the storage system so far. The batteries still take up a lot of space and are still pretty heavy. The hybrids can bridge that gap for a while as far as I am concerned. Small battery and tiny ICE running at an efficient rpm and load to generate power to a high torque electric motor and regenerative braking, and we get to keep our trunk space. We can be running at 50-70 mpg pretty easy without a lot of fuss, and without trying to max out the electric grid. Already have a few brownouts and grid failures occasionally. The energy that we run on has evolved a lot over the last 200 years, and we should expect that it will continue to evolve to ever more efficient and cleaner sources. Hydrogen generated by solar is cleaner than electricity and generates no greenhouse gasses that I am aware of. Cold fusion may make the grade in another 50 years. Generate electricity in place on banana peels as in Back to the Future "Mr Fusion". I would rather encourage new technology rather than have it mandated it by the government. That just gets too many people stirred up. I know my logic may be flawed, but the good ideas and technology are still coming out and if the government regulations don't strangle it, and "Big Oil" doesn't cover it up, we should continue on just fine. Doesn't matter if you think we are killing the planet or not. The ability to travel, work, eat, live longer, live better, be healthier, get along better with each other, and have fun without damaging our minds or taking excessive personal safety risks should be a good goal. Take time to sit and chat with your spouse and kids on a long drive to visit family and friends.

I think we burn the gas the most efficient way we know how to while working toward the better technology or we all learn how to ride a bicycle and plant our own gardens and raise our own cows and chickens. We can make a bigger impact on our world by being a little better people and teaching our kids to know the value of good work, not be afraid of a little sweat, learn how to cook for themselves, know where their food comes from and that they are not Gods gift to the universe.

I think the Elio is a good step in the right direction. Make mine Rocket Silver. Sorry to all for my Soap Box. You don't have to agree if you don't want to. I can live with that.

 

[Coss]

I'd suggest you take the time to read this then

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037

 

[xtspode]

I'd suggest you take the time to read this then

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037

Good read, and it honestly deals with the difficulties of collecting the batteries, separating them into battery types and recycling them. Recycling the components of the batteries is not too difficult, and I fully agree with the necessity of recycling the batteries. With the volume of batteries in use in phones, laptops, and now cars and trucks, it is going to be essential that they be recycled.

I am still not a fan of using up so much volume and weight in the car for the energy storage system. The battery is still just an empty tank not an energy source.

But for every problem there are a multitude of solutions. I am just happy to be here looking forward to my Elio. That will be a good solution for me.

Thanks for the suggestion and link to a good article. As a Structural Engineer I enjoy a good meaty dissertation.

Go Elio

 

[Sethodine]

Good read, and it honestly deals with the difficulties of collecting the batteries, separating them into battery types and recycling them. Recycling the components of the batteries is not too difficult, and I fully agree with the necessity of recycling the batteries. With the volume of batteries in use in phones, laptops, and now cars and trucks, it is going to be essential that they be recycled.

I am still not a fan of using up so much volume and weight in the car for the energy storage system. The battery is still just an empty tank not an energy source.

But for every problem there are a multitude of solutions. I am just happy to be here looking forward to my Elio. That will be a good solution for me.

Thanks for the suggestion and link to a good article. As a Structural Engineer I enjoy a good meaty dissertation.

Go Elio

I can't rememeber were I was reading about it, but in China they are testing public transportation busses that use capacitors instead of batteries. The capacitors charge up in about 5 minutes via induction charging at a bus stop, and can move the bus about 12 kilometers on a full charge. While 12km is nothing compared to modern EV ranges, it only needs to make it to the next stop to top-off the capacitors, and the capacitors are 1/2 the weight and 1/3 the cost of batteries.

Maybe if we had induction highways with a battery reserve for off-highway driving, then electric cars could be cheaper and much longer range.

 

[STLviaCMH]

I can't rememeber were I was reading about it, but in China they are testing public transportation busses that use capacitors instead of batteries. The capacitors charge up in about 5 minutes via induction charging at a bus stop, and can move the bus about 12 kilometers on a full charge. While 12km is nothing compared to modern EV ranges, it only needs to make it to the next stop to top-off the capacitors, and the capacitors are 1/2 the weight and 1/3 the cost of batteries.

Maybe if we had induction highways with a battery reserve for off-highway driving, then electric cars could be cheaper and much longer range.

That's an interesting thought, and also has implications for normalizing transit schedules since the buses would have to top-off their charge as efficiently as possible to avoid the risk of running out. It'll be interested to see how that develops!

That said, capacitors of that size could be friggin' nightmare fuel to do maintenance on in any location without the highest safety protocols, as the risk of shock from a capacitor discharging from even a CRT monitor is enough to send you to the ER - or the morgue.

 

[Muzhik]

That's an interesting thought, and also has implications for normalizing transit schedules since the buses would have to top-off their charge as efficiently as possible to avoid the risk of running out. It'll be interested to see how that develops!

That said, capacitors of that size could be friggin' nightmare fuel to do maintenance on in any location without the highest safety protocols, as the risk of shock from a capacitor discharging from even a CRT monitor is enough to send you to the ER - or the morgue.

This brings up a couple of thoughts. I'm old enough to remember the old-timey TV sets with the HUGE cathode-ray tubes for screens. I mean, some of these screens were 17 or even 19 inches from corner to corner. At an electronics school where they taught TV repair, on the very first day the instructor demonstrated WHY you needed to take off rings, watches, etc. before working on a set. He turned the set on, let it run for a while, then turned it off and pulled the plug out of the wall. He then took a ring, clipped a grounding wire to it, and used a wooden dowel to bring the ring close to the CRT connections.

ZZZZZPP!

The spark that leapt from the tube to the ring was about 3 inches long, and stayed connected to the ring as the instructor brought the ring to about 5 or 6 inches away. Remember that the set was turned off and unplugged from the wall. This really brought home the message to ALWAYS use a resistor to discharge the capacitors BEFORE working on the set.

The other thought your post brought home was why the diesel-electric locomotives so quickly replaced the old steam engines. We all know the old stereotype of the water tower next to the train depot. At the time, each train HAD to stop at each and every station because they had to top off the water tanks. They had to do this regardless of if they had freight or passengers to pick up or deliver. And, of course, after filling the tank, they had to stoke the fires in order to heat up this water to build up steam -- imagine how long that took in the winter?

Now, busses have to stop at each bus stop regardless, because they need to be available for passengers, so stopping to top off the charge might not be such a big deal. Still, it's something that needs to be considered when thinking about this type of system.

 

[xtspode]

I can't rememeber were I was reading about it, but in China they are testing public transportation busses that use capacitors instead of batteries. The capacitors charge up in about 5 minutes via induction charging at a bus stop, and can move the bus about 12 kilometers on a full charge. While 12km is nothing compared to modern EV ranges, it only needs to make it to the next stop to top-off the capacitors, and the capacitors are 1/2 the weight and 1/3 the cost of batteries.

Maybe if we had induction highways with a battery reserve for off-highway driving, then electric cars could be cheaper and much longer range.

I am not sure if I would like to be exposed to the extra electromagnetic fields ever 12 km. We still don't know how the fields affect the body or mind. There have been a few reports of changes even from having a cell phone up to our heads to our head for hours a day. People living under high voltage transmission wires also seem to be worried about it.

I guess if I were an Electrical Engineer or a Doctor I would be able to speak with some authority on this subject, but I am a little worried about the expansion of high amperage charge stations, high voltage battery storage, and high capacity capacitors are even more unfriendly. I really think gas and oil are more safe than some of the Electrical systems that we are looking at.

 

[johnsnownw]

I am not sure if I would like to be exposed to the extra electromagnetic fields ever 12 km. We still don't know how the fields affect the body or mind. There have been a few reports of changes even from having a cell phone up to our heads to our head for hours a day. People living under high voltage transmission wires also seem to be worried about it.

I guess if I were an Electrical Engineer or a Doctor I would be able to speak with some authority on this subject, but I am a little worried about the expansion of high amperage charge stations, high voltage battery storage, and high capacity capacitors are even more unfriendly. I really think gas and oil are more safe than some of the Electrical systems that we are looking at.

Everyone will be fine:

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer...k/radiation/electromagnetic-fields-fact-sheet

AND

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2010/08/mythbuster-emf-levels-in-hybrids/index.htm

 

[Ty]

This brings up a couple of thoughts. I'm old enough to remember the old-timey TV sets with the HUGE cathode-ray tubes for screens. I mean, some of these screens were 17 or even 19 inches from corner to corner. At an electronics school where they taught TV repair, on the very first day the instructor demonstrated WHY you needed to take off rings, watches, etc. before working on a set. He turned the set on, let it run for a while, then turned it off and pulled the plug out of the wall. He then took a ring, clipped a grounding wire to it, and used a wooden dowel to bring the ring close to the CRT connections.

ZZZZZPP!

The spark that leapt from the tube to the ring was about 3 inches long, and stayed connected to the ring as the instructor brought the ring to about 5 or 6 inches away. Remember that the set was turned off and unplugged from the wall. This really brought home the message to ALWAYS use a resistor to discharge the capacitors BEFORE working on the set.

The other thought your post brought home was why the diesel-electric locomotives so quickly replaced the old steam engines. We all know the old stereotype of the water tower next to the train depot. At the time, each train HAD to stop at each and every station because they had to top off the water tanks. They had to do this regardless of if they had freight or passengers to pick up or deliver. And, of course, after filling the tank, they had to stoke the fires in order to heat up this water to build up steam -- imagine how long that took in the winter?

Now, busses have to stop at each bus stop regardless, because they need to be available for passengers, so stopping to top off the charge might not be such a big deal. Still, it's something that needs to be considered when thinking about this type of system.

It's not like they were heating up all that water at once... Just one little spritz at a time... Once per stroke, actually.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Within the next quarter century, somebody is bound to finally wake up and realize that the answer is...

Hydrogen.