Travelbuzz1
Elio Addict
The GM is 75 hp and it looks like it is the FORD engine, just take care of the big problems and all of the small ones fall in line...
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Just Wow!!!
- Thread starter Johnny Acree
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Trusting
Elio Addict
At least if the Germans build something they build it the best they can. If the Chinese build something they build it as cheap as they can.
larryboy
Elio Addict
What I am also hearing is that people would walk away from their reservations and lose any money that is non-refundable rather than have a Chinese motor in their Elio. Makes no sense to me and, while there are quite a few people who don't like to buy Chinese products, there won't be a lot of people who leave their money on the table
RSchneider
Elio Addict
The Germans engineer things the best they can. As for actually building the product in Germany, they leave that to the immigrants (most are from Turkey). Finding a German that actually wants to work in a plant is rare these days. typically, Mexican products are the best because if you have ever been to a Mexican plant (especially a car plant) those jobs are hard to get and you'll find complete families working in them. It's funny, the VW German plants went on strike (which seems to happen often) and so did the Mexican plant. Difference was, the Mexican workers wanted more hours and work. German ones wanted more time off.
If you want a real interesting experience, go in front of the German labor board and where you have to plead your case that as a non German, you are actually the best for the job. Getting hired on by a German firm is one thing, actually getting it past the labor board is another. If you are from Turkey or former Eastern Block country, you get hired in an instant as long as it's working in a plant on an assembly line.
CrimsonEclipse
Elio Addict
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You had the ambition to check the whole list. (impressed)
Just those two, huh. Well, that narrows the speculation down a bit.
This is an excellent solution for the elio. Simple. Seems to be designed for long life and relative simplicity.
I haven't noticed any turbo charger (which is a good thing)
See, with the Eco is dependent on a turbocharger for HP and fuel economy, meaning they are sacrificing reliability.
Adding a turbo puts more stress on head gaskets and seals, pistons, valves, etc
(which is exactly where previous problems were on the truck Eco Boost engines)
These problem may be designed or tuned out of the smaller engines, but at this point, I haven't seen the numbers to convince me.
JA, this is an EXCELLENT link!
Thank you!
No, what you are hearing is skepticism from people who have reason to be skeptical.
We want a good, simple, efficient, and reliable engine.
The elio engine seems to be dead. I'm actually OK with this.
It DOES show us that making an engine from scratch is a very VERY difficult and expensive project.
I'll consider it part of the learning curve.
As all things engineering, you can't have it all. There MUST be compromise
Cheap, Reliable, Fast.... you can have any 2 you like. Engineering is about compromise.
The Elio design philosophy is simplicity, efficiency, reliability. More moving parts is a bad thing.
It's primary point of existence is a point A to B car. It CAN be a sports car but that is NOT the primary purpose.
To drop a high performance engine and sacrifice reliability is going against the ideals of the car itself. To add a turbo and several other complexities and expect reliability to remain untouched due to PFM or unicorn farts is absolute fantasy.
Design an engine in house, you need up front capital, a LOT of it and a LOT of risk, but cost savings down the road.
Buy from an OEM, initial cost and risk go down, but long term cost might be higher.
Chinese built will be cheap, but quality will be a concern. Don't underestimate the Chinese, they CAN build quality, they commonly choose not to for cost savings.
Buying American would be great for sales and no worries about import regulations. Price might be higher but not by as much as you'd think.
As for Germany... I'll just say no for now.
I'm hard on Elio for their decicions.
I'm hard on Ford for their decisions.
I will continue to be skeptical without restraint.
A few members have been able to change my mind, and they did so with science and statistics, and when they did, I happily admitted my incorrect position and recanted all of my incorrect comments humbly.
But if your best argument is "This one time, at band camp! Randy Beaman's mom had and Eco Boost car that could FLY"
Or your best argument is pouting, then you have no argument.
Give me numbers (not opinions) that show that the EcoBoost really DOES follow the Elio design philosophy, and I will recant, hat in my hands, bowing, apologizing, and happily adding new information to my mental encyclopedia.
In the mean time, I will remain skeptical.
Added:
As of today, a Chinese motor would make the Elio a throw away car.
The Elio is NOT a throw away car.
Edit #2:
Finally, I like the articles that you guys are posting, but interestingly, some are reporting the speculation that we are discussing. At least one is reporting information directly from this thread. Be careful about speculation and possible feedback loops and FUD from outside sources.
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raptor213
Elio Addict
Not sure exactly where this thread went off the rails based on a claim that GM's 1.0L ECOTEC engine is assembled in China. The link posted by Johnny Acree to a PDF spec sheet clearly states the engine is assembled in Changwon, South Korea. China and South Korea are two distinctly different countries with vastly different governments, economies, and geopolitical entanglements with the USA when it comes to trade agreements, tariffs, intellectual property rights, jobs, worker/human rights, etc.
I don't disagree with the fact-based observation that this mystery powerplant sourced from a Fortune 500 OEM (narrowed down to be likely Ford or GM) would originate in Romania, Germany, or South Korea, based upon Wikipedia sleuthing of Ford EcoBoost and GM ECOTEC engine assembly sites.
I also don't disagree with the notion that Elio's "4 Must Haves" may ultimately be compromised in the interest of reaching full-scale production capability in a realistic timeframe, whether that be the targeted 90% North American parts content, targeted 84 highway MPG, and/or the targeted $7450 base MSRP.
But how did China ever slip into the discussion and run rampant?
I know this position will not sit well with a number of the diehards here, but I personally don't care about the origin of the engine, transmission, or any other parts for that matter -- specifically as it pertains to safety and reliability of the final product. GM and Ford are multinational corporations selling products on a global stage to international customers across many borders. Their products are subject to quality control regimens that don't provide any cover or leeway based upon the locale of a factory or assembly facility. The same raw materials sourced from the same supply chain providers are pieced together using the same tooling and equipment at every location. A German, a Romanian and a Korean autoworker can all operate a stamping press and an impact screwdriver the same. The only difference is the skin color, native language, wage base and union status of the workforce.
I can apply that same logic to aircraft manufacturing: There's a Boeing final assembly plant in WA and a Boeing final assembly plant in SC ... but a 787 is still a 787. There's an Airbus final assembly plant in Toulouse, France and an Airbus final assembly plant in Mobile, Alabama, USA ... but an A321 is still an A321.
Sure, I accept that heated debates can be wasted over the differences in wages, working conditions, shift rotations, hours worked, union representation, municipal/county/state/federal tax breaks and incentives, etc. And I say "wasted" with deliberate intention as many folks are as hardline about this topic of discussion as they are about religion, which means nobody is 'right' or 'wrong' and swaying opinions on either side is futile. But when solely discussing the eventual reliability and safety of the Elio, I don't believe the assembly point of any major vehicle components matters.
I work in the aviation sector and it's laughable how many cargo flights routinely fly between metro Detroit (home of the Big 3 automakers) and Mexico. Americans get amped up about their Ford or Chevy being an American vehicle when it's actually made in Mexico, but then discount the reality that many foreign automakers employ your homegrown neighbors to build them.
Manufacturing/Assembly Facility Locations:
Toyota
Huntsville, AL
Georgetown, KY
Princeton, IN
San Antonio, TX
Buffalo, WV
Blue Springs, MS
Honda
Lincoln, AL
East Liberty, OH
Marysville, OH
Anna, OH
Russells Point, OH
Greensboro, NC
Greensburg, IN
Timmonsville, SC
Tallapoosa, GA
Nissan
Canton, MS
Smyrna, TN
Decherd, TN
Mazda
Huntsville, AL
Subaru
Lafayette, IN
Hyundai
Montgomery, AL
Kia
West Point, GA
Volkswagen
Chattanooga, TN
Volvo
Ridgeville, SC
BMW
Greer, SC
Daimler
Charleston, SC
Cleveland, NC
Detroit, MI
Gaffney, SC
Gastonia, NC
High Point, NC
Mount Holly, NC
Portland, OR
Tuscaloosa, AL
My only point here is that it's an undefined gray area to claim a car company is American or not.
Made in USA
Elio Addict
This is not true. I have worked for a German company and they don't always produce excellent things. They made a hydraulic unit and sent it to Canada where I had to start it up. They had slipped pipes into one another and welded the outside. (Not a good way to do it). This was on a 100bar system. (That's 1450 PSI). Canadian standards also require that on any flanges the weld must penetrate at least two-thirds the way around. They ended up taking all the piping off and having it x-rayed. More than 90% failed the standards. It all had to be re-done.
You must also question why makers such as Volkswagen needed to cheat the diesel emission's tests.
While much of the German stuff is good, so is everybody else's. Even the Chinese stuff. You typically get what you pay for.
I hope the Elio is a quality vehicle and the price is kept low because of simplicity.
RSchneider
Elio Addict
You bring up a point that people don't talk about. I think there are many just want the good ol' days when we had the Big3 and the cars were made in America in American plants. We can reminisce about that all we want but times have changed. I'd rather have a German, Japanese, Chinese or South Korean plant in the US as opposed to them building them in Mexico or some other country. Jobs are jobs. Honda paved the way for all of the rest of the foreign companies. We all watched VW screw it up before Honda but seen that Honda did it right.
The national news loves to cover when a company is building a plant in places like Mexico yet are silent when a new US plant is built. People get the idea that everything is going elsewhere when it's not true. In addition to that, there are way more suppliers in the US than there were just 30 years ago. They all pretty much do the same thing. Set up an R&D center in Detroit and then open up various plants in the US. Then those suppliers typically choose local companies to build their assembly equipment. If you go to places like Ohio, that state is littered with companies like this yet nobody knows it because they are some building in an industrial park and have some generic name that typically is thought of a machine shop. Anyone that lives in Ohio knows that Honda has done lots of good for that state and it really doesn't matter if it's a Japanese company. Japanese company is better than no company.
The reason why they would rather source the parts locally is because there's no worry about currency fluctuation and being close is ideal for JIT (just in time). I do know that the Passat and Atlas that's built in Chattanooga, uses 85% North American Content. Yet you never hear about that, plus they doubled the size of the plant in 2016. If you notice, many plants are all around each other. That's because of the supplier base they work from.
In the end, it shouldn't matter if the Elio engine is made on Mars and the transmission on Venus. Because last time I checked, no engine for the Elio just makes it a soapbox derby racer. An engine means you get your Elio and knowing that at least the motor has already been proven. The Elio 2.0 can get the specific Elio engine because Elio will have the revenue to develop their own engine properly. Only thing is, Elio will probably have to revise the 90% North American Content (unless they source a Mexican built engine but I don't know of any).
On a side note, I bet half of the parts on the Elio will come from this company that nobody has ever heard from. Right now they supply about $3K in parts for every car built on the planet.
https://www.magna.com/
Made in USA
Elio Addict
The reason foreign ownership (stocks) and manufacturing is bad for the USA is that a portion of the profits made from selling to the American market leaves the USA. Sure, some money is reinvested. Sure jobs are created. However, if the companies were 100% American owned, then all the profits would remain in this country. Ideally we would sell products to the foreign countries at the same rate we are buying from them, resulting in an equal trade balance. But if you follow the news, we have trade deficits with many countries. This means more profits are leaving than coming in. That's bad in the long run. We may not even have food as a major export soon. I see where they are making hydroponic buildings with solar cell power and LED grow lights and producing in very dry areas and areas with poor soil. I'm not saying we should become a closed society, but we do need to focus more on ourselves and make things a little more even.
RSchneider
Elio Addict
It sounds like that if we just eliminated all of the foreign companies in the US we'd be better off. That US companies would be formed to take up the void that is left. So for the last 38 years, companies like Honda are bad for the US and they should have built their plants in another country and not employed Americans, used American Engineers and used American Suppliers. That should have been what Ford, Chevy and Chrysler should have done. Since they didn't do that, then we just needed to hope they would and wait around for something to happen. I guess the money I received from Honda, Toyota and VW for various projects was not good for the US economy then. Since it's not, then who was going to fill that void over the last 30 years?