Momentum V76 E-series Progress - Hvac Testing Update

[Coss]

It's more likely that refinements have to be made to the ductwork and possibly the blower fan, but the compressor and radiator seem to be up to the job. The claim is that the A/C performance was about what they expected (leaving room for some improvements), heat was comparable to other cars, and defrost was really good.

The big problem is distributing cool (or hot) air where it needs to be, particularly in the rear seat. There just plain isn't room to run separate ducts all the way from the engine compartment to the rear passenger compartment, unless they are very wide and shallow -- and I have no idea how well that would work. Obviously they're getting some a/c back there, and about what they expected (however good or bad that is) overall.

EM's clearly given this a lot of thought and is working on it, but at least as far as A/C is concerned, there's some distance to the goal. But since there are no required standards, they may just reach a point and call it "good enough." Don't know that that's true -- we just don't have enough information to work with.

Pictures will help; as for wide "flat" hard plastic, that's exactly what they use; looks like this:

And they can run it through the seat

And usually over the "Hump", but since the Elio doesn't have a hump, you'd use the right "door" area

Below is from a BMW

It's all better than the first idea they came up with.

They needed something sort of simple, so they used this:

But that was in a 4 door, so they had to come up with the one they have now.

 

[Ekh]

At least the bottom one is well easy to do. Thanks for an informative post.

You know I bet Paul Elio never dreamed is little vehicle would get into complexities like these. But here we are and here they are.

one more thought. With seats designed to be replaced by upgrades in the marshalling centers, you couldn't really route the AC vents through them. That would raise costs by a zillion bucks or sharply limit the number of alternative seats you could use.

 

[Coss]

At least the bottom one is well easy to do. Thanks for an informative post.

You know I bet Paul Elio never dreamed is little vehicle would get into complexities like these. But here we are and here they are.

one more thought. With seats designed to be replaced by upgrades in the marshalling centers, you couldn't really route the AC vents through them. That would raise costs by a zillion bucks or sharply limit the number of alternative seats you could use.

The only difference between leather seats and cloth seats is the material the covers are made out of; the underlying structure and padding it exactly the same. You can sew different patterns in the covers, which can include putting extra padding built into the cover of the seat (for bolsters and the such) that can make the untrained eye believe that it's a completely different style of seat; so swapping one Elio seat for another isn't that hard.
As for aftermarket seats, oh well, you put it in, not EM; and if you lose some type of functionally, that's the way it goes; and these seat manufacturers will include notes to those exceptions to release themselves from liability. The shops I worked at sold, Recaro, Sparco, Tramlines, and a few others, and that was always in the paperwork.
Complexities is the name of the game when you're packing 10lbs of "stuff" in a 5lb bag. I think he was aware that it would have unexplored (aka new) areas that wouldn't be evident until you got to them. Yes the one on the bottom was easy; but it really screwed with the aero; and with no one making aero correct units, that had to drop it.

 

[W. WIllie]

They still have to set certain std. to be imported to the USA.(Ref. the SOLO)

 

[Coss]

They still have to set certain std. to be imported to the USA.(Ref. the SOLO)

You should take some of these seats apart; you would be shocked.
The standards aren't as much as you think.
A seat can be made from thin wall tubing with no core safety structure, and it's still acceptable.

 

[Elio Amazed]

They still have to set certain std. to be imported to the USA.(Ref. the SOLO)

Yes, both the Solo and the Elio have to be NHTSA compliance certified to be sold in the US.

 

[Sethodine]

Yes, both the Solo and the Elio have to be NHTSA compliance certified to be sold in the US.

Yeah, but it won't be hard for a Canadian company to meet US motorcycle compliance. As long as they have the proper hardware and VIN they'll do just fine.

 

[Ekh]

The only difference between leather seats and cloth seats is the material the covers are made out of; the underlying structure and padding it exactly the same. You can sew different patterns in the covers, which can include putting extra padding built into the cover of the seat (for bolsters and the such) that can make the untrained eye believe that it's a completely different style of seat; so swapping one Elio seat for another isn't that hard.
As for aftermarket seats, oh well, you put it in, not EM; and if you lose some type of functionally, that's the way it goes; and these seat manufacturers will include notes to those exceptions to release themselves from liability. The shops I worked at sold, Recaro, Sparco, Tramlines, and a few others, and that was always in the paperwork.
Complexities is the name of the game when you're packing 10lbs of "stuff" in a 5lb bag. I think he was aware that it would have unexplored (aka new) areas that wouldn't be evident until you got to them. Yes the one on the bottom was easy; but it really screwed with the aero; and with no one making aero correct units, that had to drop it.

I suspect he thought it was 6 or 7 pounds in a 5 pound bag, but it's 10 headed for 11 or 12. For instance, the water bottle issue. The simple bring-your-own-bottle appealed to him and to many of us; but it turns out if the Elio is a car, the water reservoir is regulated for strength, size, and location. Which means more bulk, higher cost, and shoving other things around in a very crowded engine bay. So he has to decide -- car or motorcycle -- and then go forward.

That decision point is about here -- and the autocycle legislation he needs is not, at least on the Federal level. Yet Paul knows that branding this thing as a motorcycle will kill mass-market sales. Most of us on this forum would be ok with that, but most people hear the word "motorcycle" and flinch. So it makes pitching the safety of the vehicle even more critical and even more difficult. The "autocycle" designation would help.

So, here we are with the E1-C about to be officially launched. Jerome told me last summer that it would have the production equipment for the washer bottle, whichever way it's going -- but it's not a trivial decision.

I'm not picking on the water bottle, per se. It's only an example of the blooming complexities of building and launching a competitive vehicle -- and genius though he is, I'm darn sure Paul never envisioned a fraction of this stuff. Yet we are close -- so close -- to having the real, buildable, salable vehicle. Obstacles do remain, but one by one they're being handled.

 

[Rickb]

I suspect he thought it was 6 or 7 pounds in a 5 pound bag, but it's 10 headed for 11 or 12. For instance, the water bottle issue. The simple bring-your-own-bottle appealed to him and to many of us; but it turns out if the Elio is a car, the water reservoir is regulated for strength, size, and location. Which means more bulk, higher cost, and shoving other things around in a very crowded engine bay. So he has to decide -- car or motorcycle -- and then go forward.

That decision point is about here -- and the autocycle legislation he needs is not, at least on the Federal level. Yet Paul knows that branding this thing as a motorcycle will kill mass-market sales. Most of us on this forum would be ok with that, but most people hear the word "motorcycle" and flinch. So it makes pitching the safety of the vehicle even more critical and even more difficult. The "autocycle" designation would help.

So, here we are with the E1-C about to be officially launched. Jerome told me last summer that it would have the production equipment for the washer bottle, whichever way it's going -- but it's not a trivial decision.

I'm not picking on the water bottle, per se. It's only an example of the blooming complexities of building and launching a competitive vehicle -- and genius though he is, I'm darn sure Paul never envisioned a fraction of this stuff. Yet we are close -- so close -- to having the real, buildable, salable vehicle. Obstacles do remain, but one by one they're being handled.

I feel a new Federal autocycle classification will be more detrimental to sales than simply leaving it as the motorcycle classed vehicle it is. Federal involvement will likely increase the msrp and add unnecessary hurdles to production. Should leave the autocycle subclass legislation of motorcycles on the state level meant to deal with licensing and helmet issues.

The term motorcycle will not kill the mass market. IMO EM should not promote the Federal Autocycle Classification and Simply market reference the Elio as a car. ElectraMeccanica is doing just that with their 3 wheeler Solo in their "smartest car on the planet" marketing campaign. Potential Elio customers will look at the enclosed odd narrow three wheeler platform as a car and make their decision regarding safety. Most will see a small potentially unsafe 'car'. The possible five star safety rating may convince them to buy it. Although EM is no longer using 5 Star Safety and apparently will be determined by crash testing E's. Most will buy a small car out of pure economics..........like I did with my first VW Beetle back in 1959. I knew it wasn't safe, but bought several over the years based on sheer economics, high mpg, and I Liked driving the odd looking littler car. The big question EM, ElectraM, and Arcimoto face is will the driving public accept a three wheeler commuter vehicle whether it's classified as an auto, a cycle, or autocycle.

 

[WilliamH]

I feel a new Federal autocycle classification will be more detrimental to sales than simply leaving it as the motorcycle classed vehicle it is. Federal involvement will likely increase the msrp and add unnecessary hurdles to production. Should leave the autocycle subclass legislation of motorcycles on the state level meant to deal with licensing and helmet issues.

The term motorcycle will not kill the mass market. IMO EM should not promote the Federal Autocycle Classification and Simply market reference the Elio as a car. ElectraMeccanica is doing just that with their 3 wheeler Solo in their "smartest car on the planet" marketing campaign. Potential Elio customers will look at the enclosed odd narrow three wheeler platform as a car and make their decision regarding safety. Most will see a small potentially unsafe 'car'. The possible five star safety rating may convince them to buy it. Although EM is no longer using 5 Star Safety and apparently will be determined by crash testing E's. Most will buy a small car out of pure economics..........like I did with my first VW Beetle back in 1959. I knew it wasn't safe, but bought several over the years based on sheer economics, high mpg, and I Liked driving the odd looking littler car. The big question EM, ElectraM, and Arcimoto face is will the driving public accept a three wheeler commuter vehicle whether it's classified as an auto, a cycle, or autocycle.

The last thing we need is a lawyer or bureaucrat telling an engineer how to build a car or even where to put the water bottle for the windshield wipers.