Sondors Electric Car

[Elio Amazed]

I'm not being negative, just realistic. This reminds me of a talk I went to at a conference called, “Ethics and Prototyping”. In a nutshell, years ago, it was to prove the concept, meet the specifications and then work on attractive packaging. That's what legit companies still do today. With all of the advances of 3D modeling with surfacing and complex curvature, we now make an attractive package, write up a spec sheet and then go to work on making those specs a reality. Elio, Solo, SRK and Sondors all fit the bill for that. They gain public interest in the form of reservations or investment with a product that looks production ready and then it's advertised heavily through social media. For many that are not in new product R&D and manufacturing, the product shown is 90% complete. Reality is, it's not even 50% complete.

This is where the hard work begins. Thinking that building a one off prototype equates to close enough to production ready, was doable 50 years ago. As of today, not the case. SRK and Solo seemed to get the cool looking prototypes out there but they all got a dose of reality when it came to getting them out in the hands of the public. We might celebrate that Solo and SRK both got their cars into production but that's not what the real world calls production. When SRK and Solo have full time assembly lines running and they hit their numbers, that's production. Think about it, Tesla is getting dragged over the coals because they are not hitting production targets. In reality, they are mustering their way right now to get the product out the door.

I know Sondors did an e-Bike but again, that was easy because he went to the land where they make 99.9% of every bike on the planet for the last 30 years. Plus, if you have ever gone to China over the last 5 years, that Sondors bike was already out on the road, it just looked different because the Chinese use a bike for transportation and the government is going all electric anyway. I have an app that I can use a bike for free in China and there are even electric ones to use also. Many days, it's easier to just go get a bike, use the app to unlock it and ride 5-10 miles on an e-bike as opposed to other methods. Plus, Sondors is drop shipping the thing from China, thus it's not like he needs anything more than a computer today to process all of that. Engineering a bike is super easy as for what they are selling was done years ago. Here's the difference, a complete car is much different as opposed to a car. An electric car is China is much different than anything we'd buy here in America (except for the 1-20 people that like quirky things).

Yeah... I knew all that and it's all true. But it's good to have it posted. Others may benefit.
As I said, those are my personal feelings about the Sondors operation.

To partially answer one of your other questions, we're in touch with SS FUV reservation holder #6 and they're still waiting.

At the Jan. EMV CEO live update Jerry Kroll said that Solo #27 was on a building table.
Most of the vehicles EMV have produced so far have been company vehicles.
Only a handful have been delivered to customers in the Vancouver area.

Kroll did say that they had a meeting scheduled last week concerning another (presumably much larger) Canadian facility.

Did you see how incredibly tiny the current EMV assembly facility is? It's about the size of a six car garage.
If that. There is no way that the production rate is going to increase in that building.

 

[3wheelin]

I guess if Paul builds a "production" ready car for his neighbor, then they are production ready. If it's that easy, we need to let him know. In the world of manufacturing, there's a big difference from delivering 1 car to some unknown person as opposed to delivering 5000 of them. On the other hand, it looks like people are ready to lower the bar just to claim production ready. If that becomes the case, Apple cold have the iPhone15 out today. It might be a friend of the CEO but who cares, it's in the hands of a consumer, thus production ready.

wrong again....production vehicle- it's been produced and in the hands of customers- production READY- it's ready to produce and none in the hands of customer/s ....yet!.

 

[RSchneider]

Actually, it’s beyond production ready. Arcimoto delivered their first PRODUCTION S Series FUV to this neighbor almost everybody knows. He has that distinctive FUV experience ear to ear grin on his face. One happy customer!

View attachment 22347

I had to Google the guy because have no idea who he is. You bring up a good point. #1 goes to some sort of famous guy that means, they will literally give him the white glove treatment on anything that goes wrong. As most of these deals go, what he advertised that he paid for and what he paid will be much different. Add that into the deluxe service, it's a great deal for him and Arcimoto. Who got the SRK #2 then?

 

[RSchneider]

Yeah... I knew all that and it's all true. But it's good to have it posted. Others may benefit.
As I said, those are my personal feelings about the Sondors operation.

To partially answer one of your other questions, we're in touch with SS FUV reservation holder #6 and they're still waiting.

At the Jan. EMV CEO live update Jerry Kroll said that Solo #27 was on a building table.
Most of the vehicles EMV have produced so far have been company vehicles.
Only a handful have been delivered to customers in the Vancouver area.

Kroll did say that they had a meeting scheduled last week concerning another (presumably much larger) Canadian facility.

Did you see how incredibly tiny the current EMV assembly facility is? It's about the size of a six car garage.
If that. There is no way that the production rate is going to increase in that building.

You bring up a good point. So, Solo is on #27. and the SRK is at #6. I now want to know, how long has it taken from #1 to #27 for the Solo and then for #1 to #6? Plus, I want to leave out the company cars because that's just an R&D trick to get "customers" to test out your product yet they cannot under any circumstance, let anyone know in the solar system their issues. Selling product to company employees does not count in my mind. At that rate, Elio could probably find 20 of his employees at ESG and sell them cars but let them sign a NDA on their experiences unless filtered through the Elio Motors legal department. They could literally take the black Elio and pass it around, who would ever know?

 

[Rickb]

I had to Google the guy because have no idea who he is. You bring up a good point. #1 goes to some sort of famous guy that means, they will literally give him the white glove treatment on anything that goes wrong. As most of these deals go, what he advertised that he paid for and what he paid will be much different. Add that into the deluxe service, it's a great deal for him ant Arcimoto. Who got the SRK #2 then?

Arcimoto’s CEO got #1, Fillion is #2, the remaining #3-6 S Series FUVs are under various hand build stages while tooling the manufacturing plant for scaled production in 2018. Fillion’s price tag for his early adopter ‘spaceship’ was $46K.

50-100 pilot vehicle builds next, followed by the remaining 1700+ reservationist deliveries scheduled for 2018.

 

[Elio Amazed]

You bring up a good point. So, Solo is on #27. and the SRK is at #6. I now want to know, how long has it taken from #1 to #27 for the Solo and then for #1 to #6? Plus, I want to leave out the company cars because that's just an R&D trick to get "customers" to test out your product yet they cannot under any circumstance, let anyone know in the solar system their issues. Selling product to company employees does not count in my mind. At that rate, Elio could probably find 20 of his employees at ESG and sell them cars but let them sign a NDA on their experiences unless filtered through the Elio Motors legal department. They could literally take the black Elio and pass it around, who would ever know?

None of those dark scenarios of doom are the reality.

Actually Arcimoto CEO Mark's FUV was #0.
Don't quote me on it, but I think that Nathan Fillian's #1 was the last out the door so far.
Arcimoto has slimmed down the battery box width by 4 inches. The six SS vehicles are getting a 100+ mile battery instead of a 70 mile.

We've also heard from the first Electra Meccanica customer to take possession of their Solo.
They told us that the only thing, other than a few minor adjustments, that went wrong was (I think) the wiper motor.

Oh, and they use it in a daily delivery business and have put thousands of miles on it so far.

I could've had access to the very first operator's manual but I declined. I can't be trusted with that kind of information.

The situation with EMV's company owned cars (I should have probably been more specific) is nothing so sinister.
Yes, there are a number of those being used for a wide variety of purposes. Just as there should have been 25 Elio test prototypes.
Keep in mind they've yet to officially be compliance certified by either the US or Canada.
And they're still working on things like A/C and air bags.

Arcimoto has been entirely transparent about their victories and set-backs.
I have no reason to believe that they have changed that SOP.

Conspiracies everywhere.

 

[RSchneider]

Arcimoto’s CEO got #1, Fillion is #2, the remaining #3-6 S Series FUVs are under various hand build stages while tooling the manufacturing plant for scaled production in 2018. Fillion’s price tag for his early adopter ‘spaceship’ was $46K.

50-100 pilot vehicle builds next, followed by the remaining 1700+ reservationist deliveries scheduled for 2018.

Well that's good. So around 2000 for 12 months. Looking at 2K per year makes sense and I could see maybe a high of 5K of the economy is right. I can see that as a company like Polaris, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Honda could go from thinking about a three wheeler to production in about 12 months. Even now, they make way more complex items. I'm concerned about the success of SRK since all of these other companies will buy one, then scan it it and thus pay interns to turn it into a digital copy. From there, hand it over to the new product team where they will make it a reality. Then test and validate. From there do a slick marketing campaign and then sell it through their dealers. The only reason they wouldn't do it is, because they can't sell enough for the price point.

With this being an Elio forum, they need to sell more than 2K per year. It's like comparing the Porsche Cayman to the Honda Civic. Both make money but they do it a different way.

 

[Rickb]

Well that's good. So around 2000 for 12 months. Looking at 2K per year makes sense and I could see maybe a high of 5K of the economy is right. I can see that as a company like Polaris, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Honda could go from thinking about a three wheeler to production in about 12 months. Even now, they make way more complex items. I'm concerned about the success of SRK since all of these other companies will buy one, then scan it it and thus pay interns to turn it into a digital copy. From there, hand it over to the new product team where they will make it a reality. Then test and validate. From there do a slick marketing campaign and then sell it through their dealers. The only reason they wouldn't do it is, because they can't sell enough for the price point.

With this being an Elio forum, they need to sell more than 2K per year. It's like comparing the Porsche Cayman to the Honda Civic. Both make money but they do it a different way.

Speaking as an FUV investor, we won’t be able to keep up with the demand of our direct to consumer made to order sales model. Market acceptance of a three wheeler commuter is about to be proven.

 

[Sniffy]

Well that's good. So around 2000 for 12 months. Looking at 2K per year makes sense and I could see maybe a high of 5K of the economy is right.

Another somewhat relevant point of reference: Zero Motorcycles made around 1800 bikes in 2015.

 

[RSchneider]

Another somewhat relevant point of reference: Zero Motorcycles made around 1800 bikes in 2015.

You comparing apples to oranges. Motorcycle business is different than selling a 3 wheeler. Everyone knows what a motorcycle is, but the Arcimoto does look like an overgrown golf cart. In the end, that will be a hard image to overcome. I suspect that there will be great demand in the beginning and then it'll drop off. As long as Arcimoto is set up for making a certain amount (let's say 10K/year) and they can sell them all, then they got a good business plan. If they think they can make 100K/year and sell them, I'd not believe in that plan at all. It seems that they are on the right track and they should stick with it. Just don't become a cheerleader and make every milestone in the timeline as cause for major celebration or think that there will be some sort of major sales jump because the American public has all of a sudden changed their buying habits overnight.

In the world of engineering and project management, early celebration is a guarantee for failure.