Atvm Loan Requirement Changes

[Rickb]

I suspect an insane mode TesElio Sportser would be one amazing ride at $20K. Perhaps it would be a tilting, enclosed cabin, high performance, safest three wheeler everyday electric commuter on the planet. I would like the opportunity to buy one.......................or the Elio for that matter.

 

[Rob Croson]

The discussion about Elio vs improving fleet MPG's or cheap EV's should always generate the thought that these products are moving targets.

It is true, if the Elio 84mpg's stays rock-stable, and it takes too many years to produce, some other makes may close the MPG gap a bit. But keep in mind, it may take any number of years for heavy 4wheel-cars to accomplish very much. Elio is much more in danger from automakers who change to a lighter or smaller platform, even to a clone Elio 3 wheeler than any competition from high-technology improvements.

Any MPG improvements current makers accomplish in technology via drive tech or materials tech, Elio can also adapt into.

Agreed, definitely. I hope EM gets their trike out fast enough to take advantage of the market before it gets hit with too many other alternatives. That would let EM make some cash and establish themselves, then use those new resources to innovate and improve.

Now on electrics, the price and capacity is not dropping fast enough to bother Elio within the next few years. If the Elio exists by then, EM could them selves go that direction and easily segway back into the Elio business model because it's not tech based but material in nature. That is to say half the car is always half the price, even if it's electric, hybrid or some new super-duper ICE tech, like Liquid-Piston for example.

Again, agreed. If the battery tech keeps advancing, an electric Elio would be a great next step. Something like the Arcimoto/Electra Meccanica, but for longer distance highway use, too.

Tesla is a good example to look at. Do they have any reason what-so-ever to try a clone-Elio-EV? No, it's totally outside their normal expectation for a viable profit margin. One Tesla 2 seat sportster gives the same profit as multiple clone-Elio's, maybe about 20-50.. They seriously do not want to make that exchange.

So long as Tesla can keep getting the big bucks for their high-tech stuff, I don't see them going the economy route, either. That's fine. Tesla continues to innovate and break into the new technologies, which will eventually find their way to more economical uses.

 

[RonnieB]

If ELIO does not get the ATVM loan, I will lose the one shred of respect I still have for the folks in Washington D.C.
" The standards under review require automakers’ average fleet fuel economy to reach 54.5 mpg by 2025, while reducing greenhouse gas emissions to 163 grams per mile." https://www.climaterealityproject.org/blog/four-big-things-about-fuel-economy

You have respect for Government???? I think the 20,000,000,000.00 is Proof they cannot be trusted my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[booboo]

You have respect for Government???? I think the 20,000,000,000.00 is Proof they cannot be trusted my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said, so here is your one shred.

 

[Marshall]

This is actually something that I have to agree with, somewhat.


One of the Elio's major draws is the fuel economy. But vehicles are getting more efficient every year. And every time a manufacturer releases a new vehicle that gets very high mileage figures (say, >40mpg), the draw of getting "up to 84" goes down a bit. Why would someone buy a two-seat three-wheeler that gets 84 when they can buy a full size four passenger car that gets, say, 50mpg? Not only that, but electric's are getting better every year. Chevy Bolt? Tesla Model 3? Electric three-wheelers? What if someone like Polaris decides to build an economy version of their Slingshot?

Let's face it, EM doesn't have forever to get this thing out the door. The viability of an Elio that goes into production mid-2017 is *way* higher than the viability of an Elio that gets delivered late 2018. (Even if their credibility could survive another year-long delay.)


CAFE standards go up every year. That means that every year that goes by, the value of any CAFE credits that EM could one day get are worth less and less. (And this is assuming that federal laws are changed to allow autocycles to benefit from CAFE credits, which I personally am highly skeptical about ever happening.) Someone posted an analysis of the value of Elio's prospective CAFE credits over the coming years, and it declines at a remarkable rate as the CAFE standards go up. Something to the tune of tens of millions of dollars in decrease per year, IIRC.

EM has made great progress this year, there's no denying that. The release of additional E1 vehicles is very nice. And the coming release of even more E1 vehicles will do nothing but increase confidence. But Horn is at least partially correct, in that the longer it takes for EM to actually produce a vehicle, the less viable/revolutionary the idea becomes. Other manufacturers continue to step up to fill the niche with their own products, and the continual march of progress by the major OEMs with increased fuel efficiency in their own economy models makes the 84 MPG less and less attractive. EM has to get the Elio out the door, do it at the low price they are advertising, and in real customer hands in 2017, or they are going to be in serious trouble.

I'll call you on one item. I currently drive a fuel efficient car that get's 50MPG. Yet I am also All-In for an Elio and it's projected 84 MPG. The price point difference is huge. $22K to get 50 or $8K to get 84. The math is simple. I intend to use the Elio primarily on the highway where it is best suited for efficiency and use my Hybrid in town where it is most efficient.

 

[Rickb]

You have respect for Government???? I think the 20,000,000,000.00 is Proof they cannot be trusted my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funniest post of the day, since it's the only reason the auto industry sales/profits are the highest ever and parts suppliers are still able to manufacture parts that may be used in the Elio and an overall stabile small town main street economy.......in case you have forgotten where things were at in '08.

 

[Marshall]

Funniest post of the day, since it's the only reason the auto industry sales/profits are the highest ever and parts suppliers are still able to manufacture parts that may be used in the Elio and an overall stabile small town main street economy.......in case you have forgotten where things were at in '08.

Oh! 08 when $2B deficits were a big deal instead of pocket change. I remember when a $1B debt (all prior deficits) was a big deal. Easy money always comes to an end.

 

[Rickb]

Oh! 08 when $2B deficits were a big deal instead of pocket change. I remember when a $1B debt (all prior deficits) was a big deal. Easy money always comes to an end.

Easy money had come to an end for Corporate America. Hard earned money of the working classes was pretty much gone too. Frankly, none of us, not even you, would have wanted to experience the alternative option, particularly the auto industry and small town mainsteet mom and pop businesses.

This is not a political comment, but rather a view that indicates where the auto industry was.......in the toilet.........and some were ready to flush it all away. There would have been zero Elio progress and zero opportunity for the ATVM loan. Many are cussing the government and hoping for the ATVM loan in the same breath. Makes no sense to me. Interest rates are low, people can afford to buy cars and homes that qualify. My personal economy is stabile and I can pay cash for an Elio, unless someone votes (political) to screw it up again.

 

[Marshall]

Easy money had come to an end for Corporate America. Hard earned money of the working classes was pretty much gone too. Frankly, none of us, not even you, would have wanted to experience the alternative option, particularly the auto industry and small town mainsteet mom and pop businesses.

This is not a political comment, but rather a view that indicates where the auto industry was.......in the toilet.........and some were ready to flush it all away. There would have been zero Elio progress and zero opportunity for the ATVM loan. Many are cussing the government and hoping for the ATVM loan in the same breath. Makes no sense to me. Interest rates are low, people can afford to buy cars and homes that qualify. My personal economy is stabile and I can pay cash for an Elio, unless someone votes (political) to screw it up again.

The government taketh, then gives it back to a limited number of people with strings attached and expects applause.

Not me. Don't take it away by defining investor classes and restricting those who can fund a start up. The ATVM loan is needed because Elio is limited to the "Sophisticated" Investors over the 50M available in RegA+.

I'd prefer eliminating the restrictions, but if they are there I have to hope that Elio gets the small portion it needs, even after everyone in power get's theirs.

 

[Smitty901]

ATVM is a loan not a grant . Big difference. I know many time to the connected ECO friendly types loans are made with a wink and never paid back.
How is ELIO even in the running for ATVM loans. The ELIO is not a car it is still a motorcycle and there for not part of the program unless I missed a major change some where.
Still waiting on my ELIO. I had hope to have it before I retired again. That will not happen so maybe I will see one after that. Still looking for a reason to go all in and commit on a second one.
All in for $1000 on ELIO 8019. Signed the commitment to purchase also. The only thing that has changed in I may want a different color.