Sondors Electric Car

[Rob Croson]

Too much money spent on engine development and marketing a product, touted as being almost ready for delivery.

Engine development cost EM close to nothing, in the overall scheme of how much they've spent in total. $1.5M? And a significant portion of that was in stock options.

 

[Rob Croson]

The SEC filing that I posted states that they've earmarked $20M for the production prototype and related development, testing and tooling.
I believe the actual cost for the Italian-built concept prototype was just over $750k. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/...nrept2.pdf
No, they will not "then need a lot more money to actually build it in volume." They are going to farm production out by bid. It will be OPP.

Whether Sondors pays it, or someone else pays it, it still has to be paid. $20M is a lot more money. (And as an aside, I shudder to think of the problems to be caused by contract manufacturing on the quality and reliability of the final build. Not to mention the implications for lack of long term support.)

The point being that no, Sondors is not going to get his three-wheeler into production for a million dollars. He is hoping to get someone else to front the money for production. Hopefully he will be lucky/skilled enough to make that happen. It may or may not work out for him.

Honestly, sometimes I also think the never-ending EM promotional campaign was a disaster.
It was a lot like putting more energy into producing an alternative fuel than that fuel ultimately produces.

It seems to have cost exponentially far more money than it raised.
It seems to have drawn money, time and effort away from designing the vehicle.
And it seems to have put them in a position of having to build the first 65k units near cost.

Something I'm sure potential investors found to be a factor in the decision to invest or not to invest.

This is possible. Seems to me that the promotional campaign was intended to drive interest and reservations that could be leveraged into convincing investors that it was worth the risk. It appear to not have worked quite so well. The interest in the product has been demonstrated, but the oped-for investors never materialized, for whatever reason.

 

[acentre]

Whether Sondors pays it, or someone else pays it, it still has to be paid. $20M is a lot more money. (And as an aside, I shudder to think of the problems to be caused by contract manufacturing on the quality and reliability of the final build. Not to mention the implications for lack of long term support.)

The point being that no, Sondors is not going to get his three-wheeler into production for a million dollars. He is hoping to get someone else to front the money for production. Hopefully he will be lucky/skilled enough to make that happen. It may or may not work out for him.


This is possible. Seems to me that the promotional campaign was intended to drive interest and reservations that could be leveraged into convincing investors that it was worth the risk. It appear to not have worked quite so well. The interest in the product has been demonstrated, but the oped-for investors never materialized, for whatever reason.

The Sondors seems to be on the same investor investing path, but at much reduced amount. Elio had large scale, and investment, plans, Sondors is lower production, albeit at a higher price. It does seem the Sondor's path will prevail over the Elio, not to mention, that the Sondors is a more useful design for most people.
Exciting times, but I will miss my Elio deposit.

 

[dbatch1715]

The Sondors seems to be on the same investor investing path, but at much reduced amount. Elio had large scale, and investment, plans, Sondors is lower production, albeit at a higher price. It does seem the Sondor's path will prevail over the Elio, not to mention, that the Sondors is a more useful design for most people.
Exciting times, but I will miss my Elio deposit.

Sondors already has learned from Elio's mistakes. Don't buy an ex GM Factory and make employment promises that you can't keep. Once the Sondors concept car is unveiled in America, I would bet the 20 Million needed for tooling will be raised in record time. The car will more than likely be assembled in China, so some heat will be taken for that, but the Honda Fit is made in China so that might not be a factor? Anyway, I'm looking forward to the road test and unveiling soon.

 

[Ty]

The SEC filing that I posted states that they've earmarked $20M for the production prototype and related development, testing and tooling.
I believe the actual cost for the Italian-built concept prototype was just over $750k. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/...nrept2.pdf
No, they will not "then need a lot more money to actually build it in volume." They are going to farm production out by bid. It will be OPP.
Keep in mind that the Chinese and GM are currently producing and selling their own 4-wheeled EV in China for $5300 USD RETAIL.

Besides EM's efforts being concentrated on a dog-and-pony show...
This could very well have been one of the Elio's fundamental flaws.

The Elio lacked serious engineering for years.
Yes, EM is trying to use mostly off-the-shelf N. American parts.
But they're trying to re-invent the wheel from scratch, so to speak, at Shreveport...
While they've tried to do an imitation of herding cats with an incredible amount of suppliers.

Honestly, sometimes I also think the never-ending EM promotional campaign was a disaster.
It was a lot like putting more energy into producing an alternative fuel than that fuel ultimately produces.

It seems to have cost exponentially far more money than it raised.
It seems to have drawn money, time and effort away from designing the vehicle.
And it seems to have put them in a position of having to build the first 65k units near cost.

Something I'm sure potential investors found to be a factor in the decision to invest or not to invest.

EM may have produced more of a popularity contest than a real effort to design and build the autocycle itself.
And they surely made the whole process far too complicated for what they claim is such a simple vehicle.

"It seems to have cost exponentially far more money than it raised." I don't see how you figured this one out. I didn't see anywhere how much the touring cost. I remember at the time thinking it was a good thing they toured because they got 65,000 reservations of which many can be attributed to the tour. Not only that, the tour allowed future suppliers a chance to see the Elio and meet the team and I'm sure that had a lot to do with their partner list.

Shreveport is an established production facility built to handle the logistics that will be required to build a lot of Elios. Sondors, Electromechanica, and the like have no such facility. It seems those companies may have promised short while Elio is playing the long game. You can't argue that if all these companies go to production that Elio won't be the one who can produce the most vehicles. That factory is just a REALLY big deal. It's hard to get that right now because Elio isn't producing anything tangible. Building a prototype of a car that is going to be hand assembled at a slow pace is not hard to come by but building a prototype that is being set up for "real" production is a LOT more difficult. Every single part on the thing has to work exactly right every single time it's installed. You can't have someone tweaking a part or having to do some welding on the assembly line. No. The careful approach Elio has been taking seems to be lacking forward progress but is tantamount to making sure your house foundation is strong before building the house.

 

[Ty]

Sondors already has learned from Elio's mistakes. Don't buy an ex GM Factory and make employment promises that you can't keep. Once the Sondors concept car is unveiled in America, I would bet the 20 Million needed for tooling will be raised in record time. The car will more than likely be assembled in China, so some heat will be taken for that, but the Honda Fit is made in China so that might not be a factor? Anyway, I'm looking forward to the road test and unveiling soon.

Hey! Elio learned that same lesson... they didn't buy a GM plant either!

 

[acentre]

Sondors already has learned from Elio's mistakes. Don't buy an ex GM Factory and make employment promises that you can't keep. Once the Sondors concept car is unveiled in America, I would bet the 20 Million needed for tooling will be raised in record time. The car will more than likely be assembled in China, so some heat will be taken for that, but the Honda Fit is made in China so that might not be a factor? Anyway, I'm looking forward to the road test and unveiling soon.

I believe Fit is made in Mexico. I really do not care where it is made, as long as the design and construction is sound. Lower volume, higher price point is the realistic path to sales, much like the slingshot.

 

[acentre]

 

[Rob Croson]

Lower volume, higher price point is the realistic path to sales, much like the slingshot.

An Elio at twice the price is a flop. The Solo, Sondors, and SRK only stand a chance because they are electric. (I have my doubts about the SRK, due to some design decisions they made, but that's a separate issue.) People are willing to toss out a lot more for an electric that for standard ICE.

 

[Rickb]

An Elio at twice the price is a flop. The Solo, Sondors, and SRK only stand a chance because they are electric. (I have my doubts about the SRK, due to some design decisions they made, but that's a separate issue.) People are willing to toss out a lot more for an electric that for standard ICE.

I think the SRK will make it because of the design and engineering changes they made. IMO Looks to be the most FUNctional and flexible urban commuter/deliverator of the bunch. The SRK has nothing but rave media and reservationist test drive reviews.