A Reason For Range Anxiety

[Chaz]

Like I said, BEVs aren't all created equal, and you can mitigate the losses in the cold. The example I gave was pre-conditioning the Tesla, which most owners do when it gets cold. They'll still see greater than 12% efficiency reduction, but it will be a lot less than 57%.

I don't pre-condition my Leaf, and I'm seeing around a 30% reduction...well below freezing.

Until they get a battery that is not prone to temperatures that are seen in many places during the winter this will be a problem.

 

[johnsnownw]

Until they get a battery that is not prone to temperatures that are seen in many places during the winter this will be a problem.

It's not an issue. Even a 50% range loss for a Tesla will handle 99.9% of the driving that sees the reduced range, and still be geting 50 MPGe while doing so. Tesla isn't even the most efficient vehicle, the Bolt is 119MPGe combined...

BEVs see efficiency loss due to cold batteries, not cold weather (though the two are connected). As long as the batteries are warm, for instance from taking a trip and charging, the losses won't be as drastic. The losses occur with typical commuter driving where the vehicle sits idle for hours, and then is driven short distances. This is mitigated by pre-conditioning. Even so, as I stated, the BEV can get you from point A to B, all while doing 2 to 3x more efficiently than the average ICE vehicle.

Norway is one of the leading countries for BEV adoption, their winters aren't exactly mild.

 

[Chaz]

It's not an issue. Even a 50% range loss for a Tesla will handle 99.9% of the driving that sees the reduced range, and still be geting 50 MPGe while doing so. Tesla isn't even the most efficient vehicle, the Bolt is 119MPGe combined...

BEVs see efficiency loss due to cold batteries, not cold weather (though the two are connected). As long as the batteries are warm, for instance from taking a trip and charging, the losses won't be as drastic. The losses occur with typical commuter driving where the vehicle sits idle for hours, and then is driven short distances. This is mitigated by pre-conditioning. Even so, as I stated, the BEV can get you from point A to B, all while doing 2 to 3x more efficiently than the average ICE vehicle.

Norway is one of the leading countries for BEV adoption, their winters aren't exactly mild.

How is the cold weather not connected to cold batteries? I will wait until there it real world data on production model Bolts driving around before I beleive the 119MPGe rating

 

[johnsnownw]

How is the cold weather not connected to cold batteries? I will wait until there it real world data on production model Bolts driving around before I beleive the 119MPGe rating

I meant that it's not the cold weather itself that is the issue, which is why it's only certain situations that cause the much lower efficiency.

I certainly agree that real world situations may cause deviation in efficiency, but for the purposes of comparing vehicles we have to use a common measure...which in this instance is the EPA test cycle. Either way, an electric drive train is considerably more efficient than an ICE, which is what I was highlighting.

 

[Rickb]

How is the cold weather not connected to cold batteries? I will wait until there it real world data on production model Bolts driving around before I beleive the 119MPGe rating

Wouldn't you much rather see real world data on a production model Elio driving around so the ATVM loan Committe believes the 84 MPG rating.
EVs, even a future EVElio simply won't meet every commuters everyday cold or warm weather driving needs. What is the desert's heat impact on battery packs?

 

[W. WIllie]

Not good. That's why they are going to liquid cooling on the packs.

 

[Sethodine]

I've never noticed any range loss on the Leaf, in cold weather. But that is probably because the only time it's ever gotten below 30° F around here is at night, when it is on the charger. The built-in battery heater kicks in at around 15° F.

Now, I have noticed that it accelerates slower and regen is less effective when the car first gets going, but once you've been discharging and regenning for a while it warms up the battery and performance improves. I only noticed that in about 28° weather. This winter has been the coldest in a long time, with night time temperatures approaching the teens(!)

Here on the west coast, it doesn't ever get nearly as chilly as the midwest. I don't think we've had "below zero" weather my entire life living here.

And if you were in a constant 'move up 5 feet, stop, wait, repeat' situation...
Combined with there being no way to make it 30 miles to the next exit in less than 6 hours?

I don't think what you describe even exists on the west coast. A 30 mile stretch of freeway without an exit? And no place to charge near that exit?

But that really wouldn't matter much anyways. Generally speaking, an ICE can run for an amount of time before it dies, while an EV can drive for an amount of Distance. 30 miles of stop-and-go traffic would actually be more efficient than 30 miles at 60+mph. With an average speed of 5mph (30 miles over 6 hours) the Leaf would do just fine as long as I don't use the cabin heat.

And that's the kicker. When I was reading the Tesla owner's experience, I was struck by how he was driving the car like an ICE, rather than an EV. It doesn't sound like he was charging every night, and he wouldn't part with the cabin heat despite the need for range. Now, he had only owned the car for 3 days, so I guess that makes sense, but still the entire thread left me with the impression that Tesla owners are much more liberal with their battery power than Leaf owners.

So really, I guess this is one of those things that depends a lot on one's personal experience and situation.

 

[Jelio]

Having been stationed in Norway (Norge) I can tell you the reason for the EV success is that they don't drive any where near the distances we do. Nor do they travel at our speeds. Mostly they and the Netherlands (especially the Netherlands) most ride bikes and or mass transit. Europe is not a relevant comparison to the good ole' USA, apples and oranges.

 

[Chaz]

The latest The Norwegian National Travel survey states that the average trip is about 9 miles. They also state that people travel less than 30 miles per day. You would not have to worry much about any decrease in battery performance at this level.

 

[Rickb]

Having been stationed in Norway (Norge) I can tell you the reason for the EV success is that they don't drive any where near the distances we do. Nor do they travel at our speeds. Mostly they and the Netherlands (especially the Netherlands) most ride bikes and or mass transit. Europe is not a relevant comparison to the good ole' USA, apples and oranges.

USA Distance Traveled Comparison: Works for most. Speeds? Think about the gridlock traffic in larger cities. Most Americans driving EVs don't worry much about decrease in battery performance.

EV success and popularity in the USA is gaining momentum with the about to be launched SRK, Solo, and the 345,000 + Tesla Model 3 pre-orders. The likely reason for early EV acceptance in Norway might be that the population base has more interest in renewable transportation options along with the cost of a gallon of gas @ $10.76 per gallon if my research is correct. Perhaps we should take a lesson.