Fire Side Chat With Paul - 9 Sept

[Ty]

It may be the double-lobe cam, or whatever they call the mechanism that allows for higher torque when called for. Someone more technical will doubtless put this better, but as I understand it when power is called for the cam moves slightly, moving the valve stem into a higher lift position, then moves back again when the load is reduced, thus preserving fuel economy at cruise and giving you oomph when accelerating. Someone please fix my explanation if it's too far off.

You are a little off with respect to the way the Elio will do it. Each cam lobe has a groove in middle that follows a different profile. The valve lifter has, for simplicity of explanation's sake, a turkey timer that pops out when the timing needs to be changed. The Valve lifter with the turkey timer popped out then follows the grooved lobe. When that power isn't needed, the turkey timer is popped back down flush and the lifter follows the two sides of the cam. Hydraulic pressure (using engine oil as the medium) will control the turkey timer.

I wonder if Paul eluded to the first generation of engine as being without the special cam. Hmm...

This wasn't direct "THREAD DRIFT", Paul mentioned the first generation motor during the fireside chat (this thread's topic) and the question came up as to what that meant. Well, they told us the first motor didn't have the variable cam, right? I think they did. If so, that would mean the motor for the P5 will be the same single cam profile version as the one they tested back in February. I'd bet the second generation engine will have the dual cam profiles. And THAT is what I think Paul was eluding to during the Fireside Chat (This thread's topic)

 

[Jambe]

What I don't understand is, What causes the turkey timer to pop out?

 

[Ekh]

In the below thread, the following is said about the engine being built for turbocharging:

Is the engine capable of forced induction like turbochargers or superchargers?This is a great question. The engine was not designed to be forced inducted. Forced induction needs to be designed as part to the engine architecture; the Elio engine was not designed for this. Forced induction cause more stress and strain on every component, from the base block, bearing caps, cylinder head gaskets and cylinder head bolts to the heat rejection needed because of the compressed air. In addition to designing an engine for forced induction, the cost of components are more expensive for these type of engines. One of Elio's major goals was an inexpensive highly efficient power train.

http://us6.campaign-archive1.com/?u=24b371802c83d81776b06aa68&id=4801365dc7

Contradicted by Paul's officially saying there will be a turbo kit after a year or so of production and it won't void your warranty. What's in the kit I have no idea.

The article referenced below is from June of this year (2015)
http://www.insidercarnews.com/exclu...ng-at-forced-induction-and-tdi-in-the-future/

 

[Ty]

What I don't understand is, What causes the turkey timer to pop out?

hydraulic pressure. Most engines use hydraulic tappets between the valve and cam. They are filled with oil that is pressurized. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume the turkey timer was moved when pressure increased like during acceleration.

 

[Coss]

Contradicted by Paul's officially saying there will be a turbo kit after a year or so of production and it won't void your warranty. What's in the kit I have no idea.

The article referenced below is from June of this year (2015)
http://www.insidercarnews.com/exclu...ng-at-forced-induction-and-tdi-in-the-future/

There's a key word mentioned in the statement that says why there won't be a "Turbocharger"
Here's the quote:
There is one issue at hand, however, and that is the fact that the production engine will have a 12-to-1 compression ratio. This means that either Elio will need to retune the internals of its engine to accept boost or Precision will need to tune the supercharger system to this high compression ratio.

Regardless of the details, the fact that Elio is considering this as an option is incredible. What’s even more impressive are the numbers the three-cylinder engine is capable of. Though there are no specific horsepower numbers available, the initial estimates put the supercharged Elio’s 0-to-60 sprint at just under five to just under six seconds – that’s four to five seconds quicker than the base model. Those are damn-fine numbers for a car that will likely be less than $10,000, considering the base Elio will run just $6,800.

According to Paul Elio and Jerome Vassallo, the supercharger is likely about a year or two behind the release of the vehicle itself. However, buyers want the car once it hits production but are still interested in the extra boost, Elio will be able to retrofit it on your model post-sale and not void your 3-year/36,000-mile warranty.
Read more: http://www.insidercarnews.com/exclusive-story-elio-motors-looking-at-forced-induction-and-tdi-in-the-future/#ixzz3lRwL7SCj "

So it's a type of Supercharger System. The TDI is a Turbocharged Diesel with Injection.
Superchargers and Turbo's both force the air/fuel mixture into the chambers but they work on very different principles; Turbo only comes into play when the RPM's increase, Superchargers run ALL the time off the motor turning. There are a couple of different kinds of supercharger systems also.

So Paul's play on words during the interview is correct.

 

[W. WIllie]

Coss:
A Turbo uses exhaust gas pressure to operate.
Superchargers use the engine, via a belt to operate.
Turbos are for Torque and HP. Best for low rpm operation.
Superchargers are for RPM and HP. Best for high rpm operation.
Turbos don't "load" the engine.
Superchargers are always creating a "load" on the engine, belt drive, friction etc.
MPG is based on less load on the engine.
There are very few supercharged engine available today. There a lot of turbo engines made.
Turbos are MORE RELIABLE.
They both do the same thing.....(Compress, the air/mixture into the cylinder) Unless it is a "Direct Injection"., which is the thing of the future.
There are you are talking about the difference between a 55 psi fuel pump vs a 1500 psi fuelpump, just a rough example.
It's your choice.

Willie

 

[AriLea]

One thing to note, Turbo's need some minimal pressure to get any 'traction', so very low RPM is out for them. They are normally always of the spinning 'impeller' type. And the pump side requires sizeable RPM as well. They have to be designed (or outfitted) to not over-rev at high-end RPM's.
Superchargers without clutches are always 'on'. The effectiveness at any RPM depends on the type. The pump side can be like the turbo, a roots, a piston or even a Rotary design. Leakage and efficiency vary accordingly. But I understand there is a most common super charger type for the street. Currently, is that like the pump side of the turbo? Which, like the Turbo is very inefficient at low RPM. Roots are much better at low RPM's but are more expensive. Piston has relatively high friction, rotary is expensive and can have other issues.

 

[bowers baldwin]

Coss:
A Turbo uses exhaust gas pressure to operate.
Superchargers use the engine, via a belt to operate.
Turbos are for Torque and HP. Best for low rpm operation.
Superchargers are for RPM and HP. Best for high rpm operation.
Turbos don't "load" the engine.
Superchargers are always creating a "load" on the engine, belt drive, friction etc.
MPG is based on less load on the engine.
There are very few supercharged engine available today. There a lot of turbo engines made.
Turbos are MORE RELIABLE.
They both do the same thing.....(Compress, the air/mixture into the cylinder) Unless it is a "Direct Injection"., which is the thing of the future.
There are you are talking about the difference between a 55 psi fuel pump vs a 1500 psi fuelpump, just a rough example.
It's your choice.

Willie

There are a lot of caveats to all that, technically they are all "superchargers" (ie go back to WWII and you have turbo supercharged planes)

next superchargers can be shaft driven: (right off the crank here)

next turbos are good for high RPMs, S/C is good for low-mid RPM power (better power curve too)
superchargers (like the one on my Miata) have a by-pass mode which means almost no load when not needed
as far as reliability, well that would depend on manufacture really, there are arguments both ways on this. (Ive blown up 3 turbos and 1 S/C)
I was going to call you out on "very few supercharged engine available today", I could only find about 15 for the 2016 model year, so yea I'll give you that one.
I don't mean to nit-pick but I've installed and raced a bunch of boosted cars, and had to throw in my 2 cents..

 

[Coss]

I wasn't making a judgement call on either style of forced induction; it was a re-post of information from EM with a bit of principle I added at the end.

Being that they're calling it a "Supercharged SYSTEM" I don't know what style of engineering they plan on using.

So I was just the messenger and you Don't Shoot the Messenger!


<geezzz they spell my name wrong, then they shoot at the Mod. No respect I tell ya, No respect at all>

 

[Ty]

There are a lot of caveats to all that, technically they are all "superchargers" (ie go back to WWII and you have turbo supercharged planes)
View attachment 6860
next superchargers can be shaft driven: (right off the crank here)
View attachment 6861
next turbos are good for high RPMs, S/C is good for low-mid RPM power (better power curve too)
superchargers (like the one on my Miata) have a by-pass mode which means almost no load when not needed
as far as reliability, well that would depend on manufacture really, there are arguments both ways on this. (Ive blown up 3 turbos and 1 S/C)
I was going to call you out on "very few supercharged engine available today", I could only find about 15 for the 2016 model year, so yea I'll give you that one.
I don't mean to nit-pick but I've installed and raced a bunch of boosted cars, and had to throw in my 2 cents..

Are you counting every single diesel made? I believe they are all turbo. My turbo kicks on at very low rpms to give me lots of power for towing.